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Post by malika on Feb 1, 2005 10:02:22 GMT -5
A soulles machine, as in a robot would probably be an AI right? Humanity is traumatized by those because of the war against the Iron Men. The Robots used by the Imperium are remote controlled things, maybe able to do some actions on their own but nothing too complex. Since the Mezzan use AI Alpharius view them as heretical and decided to destroy them all. AI is illegal!!! Something in those lines.
The Robots have probably dissapeard because the majority if not the entire Legio Cybernetica joined Horus during the Horus Heresy. The robots themselves arent controlled by Chaos, but the people who control the robots are the ones who are corrupted. So perhaps a small number of them remained loyal to the Imperium, so first of all they are limited in numbers hence they are not common in the Imperium and second of all the Adeptus Mechanicus has become more careful when to use them, hence they are hardly seen in the Imperium. But remember that the Red Scorpions Space Marines used robots (just look at the older fluff).
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Post by CELS on Feb 2, 2005 10:58:43 GMT -5
Oh yeah. Robots didn't have A.I... I forgot about that. Well, everything is fine then. False alarm. Nothing to see here
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Post by malika on Feb 2, 2005 11:14:24 GMT -5
In the Imperium's and Adeptus Mechanicus' point of view there is nothing to worry about if they dont have AI, the soulless machines are remote controlled by the Legio Cybernetica. But I dont know if the robots have Machine Spirits, since that concept came up in the later editions of 40k
Perhaps most people in the Imperium might confuse them with Dreadnoughts? Since in the old days it mentioned that parts from robots were also used on dreadnoughts.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 2, 2005 18:38:37 GMT -5
Simple consideration indicates that there are three potential sources for the term 'machine spirit', all of which can be applied in varying circumstances, e.g. different philosophies. These include: - Attribution: The adeptus mechanicus is, and always has been, animistic. That is to say that they believe the spirit of the Machine God uniquely inhabits all technological artefacts. This is all but the same concept as the Chaos Gods: they have a primary essence (personality, whatever) to which parts can be broken off into aspected and unique entities, i.e. daemons. Just because the adeptus mechanicus might believe that the spirit of the Machine God flows through an artefact doesn't make it so (i.e. it is just a belief and need not be a real one).
- Perceived Manifestation: The artefact may have a control system that is Pseudo, or Programmed
[/b], Intelligent (PI) which is otherwise known as Artificial Intelligence (AI). While the machine is not sapient it can mimic sentient thought. These machines may even be 'heuristic', i.e. they can learn, adapt and even develop. Might also be thought of as 'expert systems'. These can lead to... [/li][li] True Manifestation: A machine can be truly sapient, a fully Machine Intelligence (MI). These are often represented as being developed artificially, but may evolve organically both naturally (from complex system) or artificially (the use of heuristic 'genetic programs', or whatnot) to 'give birth' to the intelligence. [/li][li] Spiritual Possession: In the universe of 40k, it is also possible that a true 'spirit', i.e. a warp entity, can possess an artefact regardless of the development of the control system (AI/PI/expert systems or MI) and animate it. [/li][/ul] There is a great deal of flexibility in this intepretation that tends to cover all the bases, both the old 'fluff' (sci-fi/fantasy and the newer technofantasy).
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Post by CELS on Feb 3, 2005 9:30:39 GMT -5
Indeed. Personally, I tend to go for the last one, with a dash of the second or third one. With that said, Kage, did you get a chance to look at the current AM text? If my essay is supposed to be a part of the ASP, then I require some input. Of course, not just from you, but still...
And if you scroll back a few pages, you'll also notice some other questions I have asked you, which you haven't answered. Like the question on Adeptus Mechanicus history.
I'm not going to be difficult and insist that my essay should be a part of the A.S.P, but I think it be in our common interest to have some text on the Mechanicus in the ASP. But, if no one is interested, I will surely take it elsewhere.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 3, 2005 23:29:41 GMT -5
Indeed. Personally, I tend to go for the last one, with a dash of the second or third one. Preference has a tendency of doing that. All four remain a part of the 'fluff' and are operable independently or simultaneously. With that said, Kage, did you get a chance to look at the current AM text? I have been checking my email every day hoping that it would arrive. It has not yet arrived ( kage2020@gmail.com) and I'm wary of checking the 'current' information on the thread for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is common for information not to be updated on them, and at the moment it's easier for me to check things offline. I also like to keep on Offline archive of the majority of things being discussed. (Which is why I'll ask for completed SR world documents in the long term.) ...then I require some input. Of course, not just from you, but still... <grin> It is always the case that those threads that interest you - and that is the generic 'you', not the specific you that is CELS! - are never responded to with as great a frequency as you would desire. I'm personally with-holding comments until I see the whole thing mainly because I have an overall impression that is likely in error. So, get to sending me the document and I should get to looking through it. And if you scroll back a few pages, you'll also notice some other questions I have asked you... I had a look and didn't find anything that jumped out at me or was desparately important, or that indeed didn't require that I see the updated document. (See above.) So, again, send it through with perhaps a reminder here of the questions and, well, you'll be surprised what can happen. Like the question on Adeptus Mechanicus history. That was just a point of how I see it. I have mentioned it elsewhere before and you always seem to have an eidetic memory (or just a search button or something! ) of what has gone before... Simply put I find the very premise of the adeptus mechanicus to be flawed, mired more so by the ad hoc addition of the Iron Man concept into the melting pot that is incoherent 'fluff'. Essentially it says that Age of Strife = cut off of Terra = fall of civilisation = fall of technology & Iron Men = rebuffal of all technology = fall of civilisation & emergence of psykers = fall of civilisation. It's all rather mired imagery. It kind of works on superficial consideration, but it is the assumption that Mars - a technologically advanced world (but not too advanced) that was undergoing terraforming that survives to the 41st millennium - would, because of the over-arching 'image' of the 40k universe suddenly fall into technological barbarism. Technology is raised as an icon in exclusion to the concept of knowledge, strange sicne the latter is venerated in and of itself. I don't think that it adds up and, indeed, even as a teenager I never thought that it did. Not to say that it is not possible, just that when everything is taken together it doesn't add up... So for me it is more about the removal of technology and the control of said technology, not veneration at least in the beginning. Rather, the control of 'science' and the trappings of science - knowledge, artefacts - in the hands of a technocracy that perpetuates itself through hierarchal technical advancement... I'm not going to be difficult and insist that my essay should be a part of the A.S.P, but I think it be in our common interest to have some text on the Mechanicus in the ASP. But, if no one is interested, I will surely take it elsewhere. Are you okay? Your posts seem to be getting somewhat... demanding? peremptory?... recently. Unusual for you. And you should feel free to post the information elsewhere whether it is a part of the project or not. If it is then acknowledge the project. If it isn't, then just acknowledge the people that you've taken some of your ideas from!
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Post by CELS on Feb 4, 2005 4:06:13 GMT -5
I have been checking my email every day hoping that it would arrive. It has not yet arrived ( kage2020@gmail.com) and I'm wary of checking the 'current' information on the thread for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is common for information not to be updated on them, and at the moment it's easier for me to check things offline. I also like to keep on Offline archive of the majority of things being discussed. (Which is why I'll ask for completed SR world documents in the long term.) Ah. You must have missed the post where I gave you a link to the current information. But fair enough. If you don't have the online time to check out that thread, I will e-mail it to you. I will do that then. Not sure I follow here. By 'you', do you mean me specifically, or the general person, or the reader's point of view in fluff? Well, I hope to shed some light on why this 'technological barbarism' spread across the galaxy, leaving only the Mechanicus with all the high technology. The idea is that most worlds didn't fall into anarchy and barbarism, but that the Mechanicus, supported by the Imperial armies, crippled most worlds that they found so that they would be dependent on them. For example, the fluff states that Titan Legions were common in the Age of Technology, and that each human colony typically had Titans. The Mechanicus obviously wanted to be the only ones owning Titans, and the only ones capable of building them, so when they arrived at new worlds, they captured or destroyed any Titans they found (most were considered 'unholy') and ensured that no new Titans would be built, by destroying educational facilities, libraries, etc. and killing the dangerous people that had this knowledge. In other words, the Mechanicus was not the salvation army that saved the galaxy from anarchy and barbarism. They just left everyone thinking that, because -as the storyteller says in Braveheart- history is written by the victors. Peremptory... well, I'm not too familiar with the word, but according to the dictionary, I guess you could say my posts are peremptory. Not demanding though. I'm not demanding that anyone help me, but I do want to finish my essay. If you think my posts are getting hostile or something, then you've misunderstood. I'm just getting slightly impatient. And that's not unlike me at all Rest assured though; If you do tell me that my views on the Adeptus Mechanicus, and my essay, are unfit for the ASP, I will obviously credit the ASP, and the specific individuals who have contributed especially much. The bottom-line is that I want to finish it. If not here, then elsewhere.
Oh, and Zholud- I just realised the Sodalicum Psykologis is already a part of the Collegia Biologis...
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 4, 2005 17:38:58 GMT -5
Sorry if this gets to rambling... Age of StrifeThis is inconsistent with the 'fluff' descriptions of Mars, which talks about jungle. It is also not overtly consistent to the process of terraforming itself (well, theories on how it might be achieved anyway), e.g. the idea that you turn 'off' the machinery and everything goes back to 'normal'. This, of course, is dependent on how long you think that Mars was being terraformed. [/list] Generally, I'm rather unfond of the idea of machines as object of veneration rather than the 'spirit' behind them. Without the motivating power of the Machine God the machine is nothing, and the Machine God is accessed through understanding and knowledge rather than some inherent property of technology. After all, is alien technology invested with the spirit of the Machine God in the belief system of the AdMech? Or is a used device sanctified to the Machine God through the rituals of the AdMech and therefore invested with their gods' spirit? This is all a part of what I was getting at above. The GW 'fluff' has sufficient lattitude for a minor alteration which puts back humans into the origins while allowing for the veneration of the machine or, rather, the spirit within. This would allow for the development of specific philosophies around archaic 'masters', the tendency for homeostasis, etc. One other important thing that it does, for me anyway: it opens up the AdMech into something that is more than merely a two-dimensional image that we are more familiar with. The Philosophies were a good step in that direction, and your Paradigms another one that helped refine the holistic image so that it included the current approach to the Forgeworlds... but we need more and this is, for me, one of the obvious ways to do it. Indeed, when it comes down to it you say so with "the devotees of the Cult Mechanicus saw technoogy as their path to salvation". But that doesn't quite fit on its own, does it? I mean, technology is seen as the path of salvation when it is falling down around them... Okay, that by itself isn't too bad, but if you consider the generic salve applied against the widespread technological superstition in the Imperium you see that it has a name: "Iron Men". If technology fails because of the Iron Men then why is the experience of Mars so fundamentally different? Their greater reliance on technology in many ways makes them more susceptible to the downslide of technology as a result of the Iron Man situation. No, it makes far more sense to bring knowledge to its position of importance. After all, the Emperor was not venerated as Omnissiah for being a machine! This once again relates to terraforming, but it is one of those unlikely points that anything that would have allowed the development and maintenance of complex flora on Mars would have 'failed' in such a fashion. (E.g. warming up the planet through thickening of the atmosphere, etc. Check out Kim Stanley Robinson's fantastic Mars ( Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) trilogy for sci-fictional inspiration!) If the biosphere was failing, how did the population sustain itself? Yes, it works as a mechanic if you believe the population was large and increasing but with all that "radiation" going around...? This is one of the points where Phillip's STC:CS does make a form of sense, at least in the illustration that resource control is going to be incredibly important to a hiveworld. <cynic>Isn't it lucky for us that they had the STC for all operable systems on a starship! </cynic> Terra during the Age of Strife... This is something that really does require a bit of thought. That the civilisation might have 'starved' is reasonable if the world is cut off from 'food supply', but then again we're back to the idea about the ultimately "silliness" of hiveworlds... Why was technology lost and the slipped back into barbarism? Perhaps this is too much of a parallel issue. Predicting the calming of warp storms? Is this really something that they could do, or did they merely observe it and capitalise on calm periods? After all, if they could do it then they could (reasonably) do it now... unless that 'technological loss' card has to be played yet again. Age of the ImperiumA terminology consideration rises with the statement: Technically untrue. The Age of the Imperium doesn't really start until the 'ascension' of the Emperor to the Golden Throne. Before that was the Great Crusade. It would be strange that the Emperor would only reunite with Mars following the dispersal of the warp storms that surrounded Terra. Where is the opportunity to construct new ships, etc., that would provide the basis of the Great Crusade itself? What about the construction of all those hundreds of thousands of suits of power armour, if nothing else! The Omnissiah was the avatar of the Machine God, not the 'Machine God Incarnate'. This is a common misconception in the more recent 'fluff' and a point where the 'image', i.e. common perception, has reinforced itself almost to the point of canon and return and revision to the 'fluff' itself. This is also reinforced, or even contradicted, by the whole horrendous idea that the Machine God is the Dragon. Think about it... An excellent point and, surprisingly, something that I have personally not considered before at least with specific reference to forgeworlds. My suggestion of the 'wave theory' of the Great Crusade makes even more sense in this light, so that's good. It must also be noted that the adeptus mechanicus needs a way of communicating with each other given the vaunted independence of the Forgeworlds, so this is the oint where the Holy Altar is reintroduced as an important part of the 'fluff' on the adeptus mechanicus. Position of the Adeptus Mechanicus in the ImperiumYou might want to reword the first sentence, avoiding the whole "...same as..." approach which comes off as rather cludgey. Perhaps something along the lines of, "The adeptus mechanicus enjoys a unique position with the adeptus terra, the Priesthood of Earth. While organisationally it is considered a part of that Priesthood in reality it maintains an independence that is the source of must consternation in the halls of the senatorum imperialis..." or something like that. Just avoid that "same as". Yeck. (And as a personal note, let us avoid 'American' English where possible, i.e. 'organisation' rather than 'organization'. It's a preference thing and easily fixed! )
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 4, 2005 17:39:19 GMT -5
Also, as I continue to read down it might be worth a 'copy edit' of these piece. Items such as "stay in control of" might be better replaced with something else, i.e. "...Forgeworlds were to maintain self-governance independent of the adeptus administratum..." or somesuch. Of course, as author you have a right to object since in many ways it does come down to writing style. And, well, this is a second language for you so I'm bl**dy impressed with what you do anyway!
This is something that while not redundant might be better served if it was introduced in another section. You have already stated the position of the adeptus mechanicus with relation to the adetus terra, so perhaps an section on "Relations with the organisations of the adeptus terra" or whatever might be useful. (Hmmn... that also might be redundant...)
This paragraph and parts of the following paragraph read as unnecessary.
This is the point where you have the capability of 'shining bright' and giving a reason why the authority of the adeptus mechanicus was perpetuated amongst the worlds that were introduced during the Great Crusade and, subsequently, the Age of Strife. Pogroms of scientists, or whatever, I don't know...
This is something that is going to make a number of people unnecessarily uncomfortable. Perhaps it is best to remove the 'billions' (too specifically suggestive of scale)?
Well, it should have the "blessing of the Mechanicus". Is that not the whole point of observation for 'technoheresy' and so forth? There must be some form of monitoring as well as means by which appropriate technology can be sanctified to the Machine God and, therefore, receive its spirit into itself?
A question for you... Why is it economically sensible (for example) for the adeptus mechanicus to produce steam engines for sale to a post-Rennaissance culture? Surely the adeptus mechanicus specialises in the production of technology that only it can produce...?
Hierarchy I think it might be valuable here to impose differentiation between the 'scholastic' system and the 'apprenticeship' system or, rather, the interplay of both systems for best effect. That is to say that the budding and gifted student can rapidly move through the ranks because of sponsorship by a 'master'. We all know this, of course, but it would be good to be specific about it as much as possible. Similarly, however, we should not over-emphasise the 'master' approach by suggesting a hierarchal system which requires that they be utilised.
Similarly, while the "Rite of Initiation" is partially about cybernetic modification, it should not be represented as the whole kit-and-kaboodle, or whatever that phrase is.
Indeed, one premise of the whole "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach is that TechPriests might not know what they are doing. Surely it behoves us to try and include this without making them 'novices', 'acolytes' or whatever.
While I think about it, the regional positions as moderators to the Holy Altar seems strange. Surely all Forgeworlds are connected by the Holy Altar. That was kind of the point of it in the first place.
I've always personally seen the Fabricator General to be a mouthpiece, much like the Paternoval Envoy and the Inquisitorial Representative.
The Wargame Stuff... On a more personal note I would prefer to see mor einformation on the stuff that we don't see. I'm not sure whether that is possible, but it would still be good. I'm more than willing to spend the time going through ideas on this type of thing then merely paraphrasing the information that we already have on the various military units. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be included, merely that we could spend our - well, your - time on other things.
My brain hurts at the moment and I'm wanting to go and watch a film so I'll stop there. More to follow, hopefully.
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 5, 2005 4:31:37 GMT -5
Because they have to get their power from somewhere. If the mechanicus had their way nobody would be allowed to produce anything themselves and all manufacturing and science would be under their jurisdiction. Plus, linking neatly to my exceptionally old point about tech levels, a steam engine isn't just a steam engine. Produced using TL12 technology, it's going to be pretty realiable and quite handy to have. This reduces the likelihood that someone's going to go tinkering with it and thus start asking questions...
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Post by CELS on Feb 5, 2005 8:49:00 GMT -5
Sorry if this gets to rambling... I wouldn't mind a ramble, as long as it concerns the Adeptus Mechanicus! And to be fair, most of what you wrote was quite useful. Can you point to a specific source? I was using the Liber Mechanicus for inspiration, since I don't remember any 2nd Edition articles having information on this, and since I couldn't find anything on Critical Hit. In the Liber Mechanicus, the vegetation is described as sparse and fragile, I think. Certainly not a jungle. I agree, except that the Liber Mechanicus states that Mars was protected from radiation by some kind of force field. If the world was suddenly showered in radiation, then the vegetation would die. The atmosphere would be the same though, and maybe the temperature. That is actually a good point, Kage, and something that I must admit I did not keep in mind when writing that part. Of course, some radicals would worship even non-AM machines and alien machines. This is all a part of what I was getting at above. The GW 'fluff' has sufficient lattitude for a minor alteration which puts back humans into the origins while allowing for the veneration of the machine or, rather, the spirit within. This would allow for the development of specific philosophies around archaic 'masters', the tendency for homeostasis, etc. Again, good point. But then there is the issue of fluff transparency, and a lot of people find it appealing to have tech priests worshipping microwave-ovens. It was only lost to the general public. Some powers kept much of the knowledge, such as the Emperor and his baby Imperium. In war, the education system is one of the first things to suffer. And there are so many weapons that could really mess up civilisation. Biological, chemical, EMP weapons, etc. It's like that silly plan in Golden Eye where the EMP satelite targets London. A lot of information and technology would be lost if that happened. Do the same to a few more of the most important cities in the world, and we'd be in big trouble. Hmph. Now that I think this through, this doesn't really make sense. Again, this is information from the Liber Mechanicus. I'll take the fluff transparent route and say that they just capitalised on calm periods. It doesn't really matter, story-wise. If you'd said that to me a few weeks ago, I would have agreed. But I've changed my mind. The history of mankind after our time is divided into the Age of Technology, the Age of Strife, the Age of the Imperium and the Age of Apostasy. The Great Crusade is only a period within the era that is the Age of the Imperium. It is not considered an Age. The Age of the Imperium begins with the birth of the Imperium, and ends when the Age of Apostasy begins. If he had already united Earth many years ago, I would agree. But the fluff states, AFAIK, that the Emperor united earth just before the dispersal of the warp storms. Well, they could do that. But there is a difference between an armed transport for Space Marines, and a 5 kilometer long battleship, and the Liber Mechanicus suggests that the Emperor did not have battleships. I haven't really said anything about other sorts of ships, but considering how expensive a space ship is, it is quite likely that a lot of the ships used in the Great Crusade came from other systems in the Segmentum Solar. Imagine how long the Earth would have to be united in order to build enough ships for the Great Crusade. I guess the Emperor had the foresight to rely on other systems, and Mars, to give him enough ships. That's what you call the wave-theory, right? Oh. As I've said many times before, I never really understood what the Omnissiah was supposed to be. Probably because the fluff isn't exactly crammed with details on this point. I'd rather not, actually And hey, maybe both the Laughing God and the Deceiver is Tzeentch, and Khaine is Khorne, and the Star Child is Ynnead, and.... *stops to vomit* I try, but Word has a nasty habit of slipping those z's in there
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Post by CELS on Feb 5, 2005 9:14:59 GMT -5
Of course, as author you have a right to object since in many ways it does come down to writing style. And, well, this is a second language for you so I'm bl**dy impressed with what you do anyway! Thanks. When it comes to grammar and wording though, I tend to bow to the opinion of native speakers, unless I have some sort of master plan. Actually, I think I'll want to keep it there. It's one of those interesting bits of information that would only turn out rather bad if I went on to elaborate. Hmmm, I'll consider that when I go into detaile about the perpetuation of the unique position of the Adeptus Mechanicus. But yeah. Fair enough, although 'billions' is a rather safe suggestion. Are you suggesting that all products that are machine-related in the Imperium must be approved by the Adeptus Mechanicus? I don't understand why you're asking me this, when my text indicates that the Adeptus Mechanicus always produce advanced machines, forcing others to make lower-tech versions. Up to a point, yes, he can. And the scholastic system only goes so far. There are no exams to become a tech priest, as I see it. I can add the part about rapid advancement though. I didn't think it was represented that way... if I understand the phrase. A fair point. I'll include this. I'm going to rewrite this part anyway, but yes. I don't see him that way, but I guess he could be. Still, if he decides not to listen to the Mechanicum Parliament, he's a very powerful individual. I did offer the thought of writing about the non-military parts of the Mechanicus actually (in response to zholud's comments, I think). The problem is that there is absolutely no information on that, and I don't really feel up to the task, on my own. If someone were to help me, that would be different. And by help, I mean more than just replying to what I write Well, not everyone has this information, and part of the point of this essay, like my ork essay, is to enlighten people about the less known facts about the Adeptus Mechanicus. But again, I am very open to input on other parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
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Post by Destecado on Feb 5, 2005 10:35:30 GMT -5
Sorry for my late arrival to this discussion...I'll try to jump right in. Let me begin by posting some fluff which relates to the Legio Cybernetica and Robots. It should hopefully make some things clearer.
THE LEGIO CYBERNETICA
The Adeptus Mechanicus is divided into many sub-branches and divisions. Each specialises in one of the myriad areas of the technical arcana. The Legio Cybernetica is one of the oldest parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Its records stretch back almost unbroken to the very first days of the Imperium and, it's assumed, to the times before the Imperium. The Legio has a long history, and its members regard themselves as an elite.
The Legio is responsible for the care and construction of all Robots throughout the Imperium. Robots may be used by all kinds of Army and Marine forces, but they are always under the Legio's final control. Indeed, many of the Adepts of the Legio have been killed while taking part in military operations. The Legio continues to serve, aware of its value as a fighting force, even in the face of 90% plus casualties.
The Legio is organised into several thousand cohorts, although only a percentage of these is ever active at any one time. Each cohort is in turn organised into maniples of three, four or five Robots plus a Legion tech-adept. The number of maniples in a cohort varies, but is rarely more than 100. However, a cohort is usually spread across an entire Marine force of several Chapters or a single Army. Battles involving more than 4 or 5 maniples are rare. This is not to say that they have never occurred - during the Horus Heresy in particular large numbers of Robots were committed by both sides in an effort to minimise human casualties until a decisive final battle could be fought.
Each maniple is virtually a self-contained unit. The (typically) four units are managed on the battlefield by a single tech-adept. He has little more to do than give the Robot's their final programs and then monitor their progress. He is, however, also charged with making sure that a damaged Robot (which could be dangerous to its own side) is destroyed as quickly as possible. Each Robot carries a self-destruct system which can be detonated by remote control should its programming fail in some way. Although rarely present on the battlefield (if they can help it) there are also a number of other, lesser tech-adepts who perform all maintenance and repair functions for the maniple. Their services are also highly sought after for other purposes. It is said that a tech-adept of the Legio is worth his weight in spares and can repair virtually any item of Imperial equipment.
Legio cohorts are occasionally attached to campaigning Marine Chapters, such as during Operation Carthage (the Second Pacification of Isstvan V). When the Desert Lions Chapter took the planet's defence forts they were preceded by a complete Legio Cohort of Robots. The Robots had been programmed to advance in an apparently mindless fashion, and proved easy targets for the defenders. However, the Desert Lions used the opportunity to map out the defenders' fire-plans and blind spots. In the Lions' ensuing assault only seven Marines were lost.
All the surviving Robots were inducted into the Chapter as honorary members as a mark of respect.
The Inquisition has also put Cohorts of the Legio to good use. Robots are, by their very natures, utterly incorruptible. Their preprogrammed, non-biological natures make them the perfect troops to use against mutants and other contaminated populations. The terror value of Robots when used against unprepared and underarmed troops has not gone unnoticed by the Inquisition. This, combined with their unflagging loyalty, has made them valued additions to the Inquisition's armoury. Cohorts attached to the Inquisition are usually staffed by technician-Inquisitors rather than Legio Adepts. Robots may be pure and incorruptible; men are not.
This was proven during the Horus Heresy, when many Legio Cohorts rebelled under the leadership of Warmaster Horns. The Cohorts had been placed under the Warmaster's command in preparation for a new crusade. When Horus commanded his forces to move against the Emperor, the Legio Cohorts at his disposal were among those to obey. In the subsequent fighting many more of the Adeptus Mechanicus joined Horus and his rebels, but this did not alter the fact that parts of the Legio had been the first to declare for the Warmaster. Following the defeat of the Heresy and the banishment of the Traitor Legions, the dishonoured Legio Cohorts also fled into the Eye of Terror, where they remain to this day.
Since the defeat of Horus the Legio Cybernetica has pledged itself anew to the Imperium. Its members now take binding oaths of loyalty more terrible than any Marine Chapter oaths. Over the millennia they have regained the respect and admiration of the rest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Imperial Guard, and the Adeptus Astartes.
Legio maniples require less transport space than standard military units (Robots can be carried in open space without harm), less life support and food (Robots neither eat nor drink) and less battlefield support (Robots usually carry their own heavy weapons). Many Robots use standard armaments, reducing the need for specialised supplies, and can interchange parts with Dreadnoughts. All this makes them extremely popular with practical military commanders.
Some of the older Cybernetica cohorts claim that their Robotic troops date, in part at least, back to the First Crusade of the Imperium and earlier. These claims may have some validity, as Robots are often cannibalised to provide parts for their damaged brethren. Given the lifespans of Imperial technologies when maintained, such claims become reasonable. It is indeed possible that one Robot's leg, or Power Field or cortex has been in almost constant use for more than ten thousand years.
Like a Dreadnought, a Robot is the product of the many advanced technologies which have produced its armoured shell, its artificial muscle and nerve bundles, its cortex, power plant, weapons control systems, equipment interfaces and cortex. The Mechanicus Weapon-shops turn out many Robots to the age-old designs held in the memory banks. Castellan and Crusader pattern Robots, for example, are known to have fought on both sides during the Horns Heresy. The designs have remained virtually unchanged since that time, with perhaps only minor cosmetic variations.
Many Robot components are identical (or nearly so) to Dreadnought parts. This compatibility simplifies many supply and repair problems. Legio cohorts have, for example, been cannibalised out of existence to provide spares for Dreadnought suits! In return Legio Cybernetica adepts have not been averse to dismantling Dreadnought suits - sometimes even killing the pilot in the process - when making battlefield repairs.
What makes a Robot different from an unoccupied Dreadnought suit is its cortex. This is an artificial brain of sorts, which is constructed from artificial proteins and enzymes. This cortex is imprinted with simple maintenance and movement routines - a rudimentary 'mind'. These enable the Robot to obey simple instructions ("Open the Weapon Bay Door, Please... Move Ahead to the Holding Area" etc) when away from the battlefield. These 'firmware' routines (so called because they are 'wired in' software) are often patterned after living creatures, and a Robot may develop a dog-like devotion to its technician-master.
Before a battle the firmware routines are overlaid and replaced by the Robot's combat wetware (ie the software of a protein computer). This new cortex program, which can be changed for every battle, defines, for example, how and when the Robot is to fire its weapons or detonate its self-destruct charges.
Each piece of wetware is held in a small slice of bioplastic, about the same size as a credit card. Many warriors take these from 'dead' robots, believing that them to hold the soul and courage of the robot. When kept in a medicine pouch some of the robot's bravery passes into the warrior; even some Marine Chapters have been known to follow this tradition.
Without its cortex a Robot is as helpless as a bolter without a Marine. It can do nothing other than take whatever punishment is meted out to it. With its cortex fully programmed, however, a Robot can prove itself the equal of many other creatures on the battlefield.
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Post by Destecado on Feb 5, 2005 11:29:55 GMT -5
The above fluff seems to indicate that robots may still exist even in the 41st millenium. It may be that since their appearance is close to that of Dreadnaughts they go unnoticed for what they are or that they were slowly fazed out and replaced by the eaqually impressive Praetorian Servitors.
This movement away from robots to Praetorians might have taken place for a host of reasons:
1. Cost - Benefit Analysis
It might have been more cost effective to replace many of the machined parts with organics. The cortex of a robot is a highly sophistocated and delicate machine. The cost of fabrication and maintenance would probably be considerable. Replacement by an organic equivalent might help to reduce cost and maintenance.
2. Strategic Concerns
Robots fought on both sides of the Horus Heresy. Things may have happened that threw the "loyalty" of such units into question...even beyond the loyalty of their controlers. Today we have computer hackers that can highjack your computer through the internet.
what if some one found a way to reprogram the robots so that they were no longer in the control of the Legio Cybernetica. Of course the Adeptus Mechanicus could not allow this information to get out. They would first eliminate all evidence of the occurance and then find a way to avoid it in the future...This may have eventually led to the replacement of the mechanical cortex with a biological one.
Maybe this is one of the reasons that the Mezzan needed to be destroyed. Reading the above fluff, it would appear that little regard is given for the "safety" of the robots. The Desert Lions for the most part used them as cannon fodder in order to map the defenses of their opponent.
A socieity such as the Mezzan which is partially made of machine intelligences would find this deplorable. It is sighted as one of the reasons that may have originally led to the rebellion of the Men of Iron. this of course is probably not the main reason the Alpha Legion attacked, but it does open interesting possibilities.
3. Societal Changes
The shift in the fluff from one edition to the next in some respects mirrors the shift of values and ideals that can take place in a society. Things such as the Yellow Peril (anti-asian sentiments that flared up during the late 19th and early 20th centuries) or the Red Menace (anti-communist sentiments of the middle and late 20th century) are unreasoning fears that can grip a populace.
These fears were fanned by government officials and a biased press. It may be that a similar movement took place within the Imperium...maybe fostered by the ecclesiarchy or other Imperial organization in an effort to undermine the power of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
It may have been an unreasoning fear of machines running amuck like the Men of Iron from the Age of Strife. Such a movement may have led to the introduction, by the Adeptus Mechanicus, of new terms to denote specific technological devices.
Example: Machine Spirit
The anthropromorphization of a mechanical device may have made it more palatable to the public. In the same manner servitors replacing robots (at least in the public eye), may have been done at first to place a more "human" face on the Adeptus Mechanicus.
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Post by CELS on Feb 5, 2005 14:34:11 GMT -5
CELS' lamentI'd just like to start my post with something that is potentially less than super-constructive. I want to share my feelings on the Legio Cybernetica. In my opinion, the Legio Cybernetica is the worst thing to have happened to Imperial fluff, with the possible exception of Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. One of the few semi-original things about the Imperium as a galactic sci-fi empire, is the absence of robots and androids. Next to Praetorian combat servitors, the robots of the Legio Cybernetica are so mind numbingly dull that it makes Star Trek interesting. Wrong / outdated. Robots are machines, and machines can be corrupted by chaos. The fluff shows many examples of this. Outdated. There is so much fiction and fluff on the Inquisition that it's not even funny, yet there is no mention of the Legio Cybernetica after Rogue Trader days. Like the Squats, the Legio Cybernetica has been abandoned by GW. And for a reason. Oooooh, awesome... Out of interest, this is actually identical to the description of a machine-spirit in a Land Raider, IIRC. Except for the dog, but that's the same for Titans, which also have machine-spirits. 1. Cost - Benefit Analysis Quite likely. 2. Strategic Concerns Robots fought on both sides of the Horus Heresy. Things may have happened that threw the "loyalty" of such units into question...even beyond the loyalty of their controlers. Today we have computer hackers that can highjack your computer through the internet. Possible, I guess. Possible, but it would have to come from extensive influence from the Ecclessiarchy and other organisations, IMO.
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