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Post by Sojourner on Oct 10, 2004 6:14:35 GMT -5
OK, a few comments:
1) I'd tenuously connect Explorators directly the the Fabricator-General/Mars as well as the forge worlds. I can see the High Priesthood having a significant interest in the Explorator fleets as well as the worlds which spawn them
2) The units of the Tech-Guard are a curious structure. I took them to be elements of the adeptus mechanicus 'Army', not organisations as such.
3) Collegia need to be applicable across the board. Not least because there are specific references to the Collegia Titanica, and I'd apply the same mandate to the others.
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Post by CELS on Oct 10, 2004 7:30:06 GMT -5
Brilliant! Hmm, yes. Although I believe most Explorator forces belong to a single forge world (like the Tech Guard and Titan Legions), I guess you have a point. What do you mean by 'High Priesthood' though? I see your concern. I never liked the Tech Guard fluff as presented in the Liber Mechanicus. Does anyone know how much of this is official, by the way? Anyway, first of all, I never liked the names. Terminators, Sentinels, Dreadnoughts, Devastators... Cataphractarii? The Tech Guard names don't really fit at all. Second, it seemed like this fluff was written just because the author had done some research on Sarmations and Persians, thought it was cool, and decided to cram it into the Tech Guard fluff to give them some identity to set them apart from the Imperial Guard. This is why I decided that it would be much cooler to have entirely seperate branches. Hypaspists, like before, are mostly standard infantry units. Pretty much like the Imperial Guard. Sagitarii, instead of being heavy weapons specialists, are now an elite heavy infantry, and a whole other class of soldiers. With highly advanced equipment and bionic augmentations, they are kind of a cross between storm troopers and Space Marines. Cataphracts are an even higher class of soldiers, bound to their machines almost like pilots of dreadnoughts. Cataphracts pilot sentinel-like walkers, tanks and even fighters and bombers. Praetorns are the ultimate shock troops of the Adeptus Mechanicus. I'll probably change this from the Liber Mechanicus fluff as well, and either have them vat-grown humans or servitors. What do you mean by saying that they need to be 'applicable across the board'? I'm aware of the Collegia Titanica, but I don't believe that the individual Titan Legions have a Collegium Titanicum of their own. The way I see it, the Collegia Titanica are independent from the specific Titan Legions, and the Titan Legions send their cadets to the Collegia, pretty much like Space Marines send some of their initiates to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. I like the idea of the Collegia being something of a seperate organisation within the Adeptus Mechanicus, to prevent it from accumulating the bias of the specific forgeworlds. A sort of Adeptus Mechanicus within the Adeptus Mechanicus, silly as it may sound. Edit- Updated chart.....
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Post by malika on Oct 10, 2004 9:23:26 GMT -5
You left out the Legio Cybernetica I always liked these "robots", they would be like remote controlled support units, perhaps some of them could have a "human essence" in it, something like a heavily armoured Servitor.
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Post by CELS on Oct 10, 2004 9:29:19 GMT -5
Legio Cybernetica... hmm... sounds familiar... oh yes, maybe it's because we've discussed that topic to death over the past few weeks! I don't like the Legio Cybernetica. I won't have it. Even if Kage goes against me on this and decides that the Legio Cybernetica will exist in the ASP, I'll still hate the Legio Cybernetica. In fact, I'll probably keep my Adeptus Mechanicus article out of the ASP if Kage overrules me on the Legio Cybernetica. It's old fluff. Outdated. It doesn't fit anymore, and I have no idea what is so cool about it. Heavily armoured servitors already exist. They're called combat servitors.
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Post by Dazo on Oct 10, 2004 10:50:26 GMT -5
Is there some reason why the legio cybernetica can't be the ones that built the servitors which are actually cyborgs not robots, technically what is called legio cybernetica should be called legio robotica.
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Post by CELS on Oct 10, 2004 11:12:32 GMT -5
Is there some reason why the legio cybernetica can't be the ones that built the servitors which are actually cyborgs not robots, technically what is called legio cybernetica should be called legio robotica. Erm.... what was the question? Does Legio Cybernetica build servitors? Not according to fluff. Should Legio Cybernetica be called Legio Robotica? According to fluff, the robots of Legio Cybernetica have some kind of biological brain, similar to the Machine Spirits of Land Raiders, except that they do not have spirits. Cybernetic is defined as "The theoretical study of communication and control processes in biological, mechanical, and electronic systems, especially the comparison of these processes in biological and artificial systems", so the name Legio Cybernetica is most appropriate. Could Legio Cybernetica be an army of servitors ('cyborgs') instead of robots? Yep, but I'd much rather scrap the name and call this army Praetorns of the Tech Guard, to avoid confusion.
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Post by CELS on Oct 14, 2004 3:31:56 GMT -5
Right... now that the hefty discussion has quieted down, I guess I can post some more stuff ;D
1.0 Overview of Adeptus Mechanicus origins and history 1.1 Age of Strife 1.2 Great Crusade 1.3 Horus Heresy
2.0 Position of the Adeptus Mechanicus in the Imperium
3.0 The structure of the Adeptus Mechanicus 3.1 Hierarchy 3.2 The Collegia 3.3 The Tech Guard 3.4 The Explorators 3.5 The Ordinati
4.0 The Knight Worlds
5.0 Factions, philosophies and paradigms
6.0 A question of progress or stagnation
+ + +
2.0 Position of the Adeptus Mechanicus in the Imperium Though the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Adeptus Terra, same as the Adeptus Arbites, the Adeptus Astronomica and Adeptus Administratum, it has a somewhat unique position. Whereas other organizations were founded by the Imperium, the Cult Mechanicus came to life by its own volition and only joined the Imperium because of the Emperor. The fact that the Cult Mechanicus joined the Imperium voluntarily has been important in shaping the relationship between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperium, because there are still elements within the Cult Mechanicus that see the Imperium as an ally, and there are even those who consider it an unwelcome ally.
When the Emperor first made a pact with the Cult Mechanicus, certain unique privileges were given for an alliance to be possible. First, the Cult Mechanicus would stay in control of its own forgeworlds and their respective knight worlds. Indeed, the Emperor also allowed the Cult Mechanicus to continue their colonization. Second, the Cult Mechanicus would have several immunities from other Imperial organizations. With the obvious exception of the Inquisition, few Imperial organizations have any jurisdiction on Mechanicus sovereign. Still, debates have raged for millennia concerning the extent of the immunities given by the Emperor, especially with the participation of the Adeptus Arbites and Adeptus Ministorum. There are some within the Adeptus Mechanicus who challenge the authority of the Inquisition on Mechanicus sovereign, but the great majority agrees that there is little room for interpretation in that regard.
Following the Horus Heresy, the leaders of the Imperium decided that the power of the Imperium must be divided between specialized branches to hinder a betrayal of similar magnitude in the future. The Adeptus Astartes was divided into small, independent chapters, the Emperor’s Armies were reorganised into the Imperial Guard supported by the Imperial Navy, and most other Imperial organisations were disallowed to a militant arm. The Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Ministorum were two exceptions.
Whilst the Adeptus Ministorum later lost its right to have men at arms following the Decree Passive, the Adeptus Mechanicus still has many great armies in the form of the Tech Guard, the Titans, the Ordinati, the Explorators and the forces of their Knight worlds. Of course, the Inquisition still keeps a watchful eye on the forces of Adeptus Mechanicus, making sure that they do not exceed their mandate. (See 3.2; 3.3; 3.4; 4.0)
Ever since the Cult Mechanicus was first made part of the Imperium, it has had a technological superiority within the Imperium, and has guarded its sacred knowledge zealously to ensure its own survival. Though there are many other organisations within the Imperium that do various research, none can match the expertise and the resources that the Adeptus Mechanicus has gathered over the millennia. Those who aim to supersede the researchers of the Adeptus Mechanicus will soon find that if they follow the rules and ethics of this galaxy-wide organisation, it is an impossible race against billions of the best scientists the Cult Mechanicus has to offer. Those who aim to succeed by breaking the rules and ethics of the Adeptus Mechanicus, on the other hand, are guilty of techno-heresy and can expect swift sanction.
In the Adeptus Terra, the Emperor has set the position and immunity of the Adeptus Mechanicus in stone and the Adeptus Mechanicus is needed to assist other organisations in everything from the building and operation of star ships for the Imperial Navy to the training of Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes.
Despite their special position, the Adeptus Mechanicus does not have a monopoly on the production or operation of high technology equipment. Even weapons and warmachines are built without the aid or blessing of the Mechanicus, and this is especially common for the PDF forces in the Imperium. The reason such business does not threaten the position of the Adeptus Mechanicus, is that none can match the quality of their products – some of which date from the Golden Age of Technology itself. This fact forces potential rivals to produce items with more primitive technology and lower price. Likewise, the Adeptus Mechanicus does not have a monopoly on science. The Imperium holds over a million worlds, and some unaffiliated scientists earn fame for inventing medicine that can only be produced with the plants of a single world, or inventing laser weapons that employ special crystals found in a single asteroid field.
On a larger scale however, none can match the technological superiority of the Adeptus Mechanicus- a galaxy-wide organisation that precedes the Imperium itself.
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Post by CELS on Oct 14, 2004 3:32:28 GMT -5
3.0 The structure of the Adeptus Mechanicus
3.1 Hierarchy
Like all other organisations of the Imperium, the Adeptus Mechanicus has a rigid hierarchy to enforce order amongst it countless members. Whilst each title says very little about the authority and responsibilities that are given to the individual that carries it, the title shows one’s position on the path of the Omnissiah, from the ignorant student to the enlightened master. Hence, the authority of the members on top of the hierarchy often comes from respect more than power. In this regard, the Adeptus Mechanicus is a structural mix between the rigid Adeptus Administratum and the fluid Inquisition.
Similar to the hierarchies of most other Imperial organisation, the ladder of the Adeptus Mechanicus is long with many different steps. This, of course, comes from the fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus has billions of members spread all across the galaxy, and the fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus performs all internal administration without the help of the Administratum or any outside organisations.
Many outsiders include servitors in the hierarchy of the Adeptus Mechanicus, simply for the fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus relies heavily on these lowly servants and because it is not unheard of to have criminal members of the Adeptus Mechanicus degraded to servitors. The members of the Adeptus Mechanicus do not consider servitors a part of the hierarchy themselves, because their hierarchy represents the journey to enlightenment. Where the young novice and the ancient arch mage both strive for enlightenment, the servitor does not. Because servitors are not on this path of wisdom, they are excluded from the hierarchy.
Another line drawn by the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus – one that is not represented in their hierarchy- is the line between theoreticians and practitioners. An Arch Mage can be the administrator of a mighty Titan forge complex with hundred thousands of workers or the leader of a great Explorator fleet, but can also be a researcher deep below the grounds of Mars, commanding only a handful of novices and servitors. Naturally, some members of the Mechanicus give this line more importance than others.
Starting at the bottom of the hierarchy, the scholars and acolytes (Discipulus, pl. Discipuli) of the Adeptus Mechanicus are members only in faith and not body. Scholars and acolytes have not yet undergone the Rite of Initiation and have not been blessed with any augmentations. The difference between a scholar and an acolyte, is that a scholar is studying the knowledge of the Adeptus Mechanicus at a school, whilst the acolyte is learning from a senior member of the Mechanicus. A scholar can be chosen a novice through difficult exams and tests at his school, and many scholars give up before they pass their tests. Acolytes on the other hand, serve as assistants and learn through the path of the practitioner. It is up to the senior members of acolytes to determine if they have the keen intellect needed to become a tech priest, and to decide when it is time for the acolytes to advance to become novices.
When one has been chosen to become a novice, one must first go through the Rite of Initiation. In this rite, the tissue of the subject is studied by arcane machines and the subject is given the first bionic augmentation. This augmentation is implanted into the brain and allows direct communion with machines and other members with similar implants. Only when a member has completed the Rite of Initiation is the member considered a novice and allowed to carry the sacred crimson robes of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Upon becoming a novice (Novum), the member is usually assigned to a tech priest based on abilities of the member. It is up to this tech priest to educate the novice according to the path that is set before the novice, and to choose the balance between theory and practice. For example, a novice might show a special ability and fervour in subject dealing with biology. It is then up to the tech priest to prepare the novice for the Collegium Biologis or to assign the novice to someone who can. After a period of mostly theoretical studies, the young member can be given the title of senior novice. Senior novices accompany tech priests in their duties and learn about the duties and responsibilities of a tech priest. This is the last step before becoming a Tech Priest, and the final stage where a member can be rejected by the Adeptus Mechanicus. If a senior novice does not show the needed qualities to become a tech priest, he or she is usually given a position as a civil engineer or mechanic outside the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The Tech Priests (Sacerdos) are the most numerous group within the Adeptus Mechanicus, given countless different tasks. Supporting Imperial Guard regiments, operating engines on starships, administering workers in factories, educating young novices and performing important research in laboratories are just a few of the many duties carried out by Tech Priests. This is the first independent step on the path of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the first chance for a member to really make a name for him- or herself. Tech Priests can carry an array of different augmentations required for their work. The most successful and venerable Tech Priests are eventually elevated to the rank of High Priest. Though this greater responsibilities usually comes with this rank, it can also be simply a mark of talent and promise.
The rank of Magos is a great honour, and not all Tech Priests live to reach this rank. The Magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus are ancient men and women, kept alive by many bionic augmentations and replacements. They are dedicated learners who have specialised in one of the many disciplines of the Adeptus Mechanicus; from biology and chemistry to shipbuilding and communication. Upon becoming a Magos, a Tech Priest must travel to Mars to undergo the Rite of Magi, also known as the Rite of First Light. This rite is the longest and hardest of all Adeptus Mechanicus ceremonies, and there are many who go insane or die in the process. Those who do survive, are not only the most talented and successful of tech priests, but also the strongest of mind and body. They carry enormous respect, even outside the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Should a Magos choose the path of the leader, he can be given the rank of Arch Magos. The Arch Magi are the powerful elite of the Adeptus Mechanicus, with whole fleets and even forgeworlds under their control. To an outsider, the Arch Magi are usually completely unrecognisable as humans and can be a quite disturbing sight. Few retain any of their original limbs, and there are many who lack a humanoid shape whatsoever. To members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Arch Magi are sacred- the perfection of the holy bond between human mind and mechanical body.
Standing above even the Arch Magi on the hierarchy, are a few administrative positions. The Segmentum and Regional Supervisors (Principis Segmentum, Principis Regionalis) have a unique position in the hierarchy in that they serve only as links between the High Altar of Knowledge and the Fabricator General on Mars and the countless servants of the Machine God. Their purpose is to control and survey the constant flow of information that enters the High Altar of Knowledge and to report to the Fabricator General. They are without doubt the humans in the Imperium possessing most knowledge, as the fragile remains of their mortal body is crafted into titanic cogitator machines which can access the entire High Altar of Knowledge at will. They learn every new discovery, they feel the pulse of the machine that is the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they are the eyes and ears of the Fabricator General.
As one of the High Lords of Terra, the Fabricator General is one of the twelve most powerful men in the galaxy, ruling the Imperium in the name of the Omnissiah. The Fabricator general spends his time in discussion with the other High Lords, interpreting the will of the Emperor and ensuring that the will of the Machine God is followed.
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Post by CELS on Oct 14, 2004 3:34:03 GMT -5
3.2 The Collegia
Within the Adeptus Mechanicus there are many departments known as Collegia, which deal with both research and education within specific areas. Studying everything from experimental weaponry to alien flowers, these Collegia form the Imperium’s greatest source of technological advance. Though many other organisations in the Imperium are in the business of research, none can match the resources of the Adeptus Mechanicus- a galaxy-spanning organisation whose very purpose has been research for fourteen thousand years.
There many Collegia in the Adeptus Mechanicus, and few outsiders know the name of them all. Each Collegium is divided into a number of Sodalica for specialization. The greatest and most famous ones are listed here.
[/li][li] Collegium Physicum (Sodalicum Plasma, Sodalicum Optice, Sodalicum Cryogenica) The Collegium Physicum is the broadest branch of the Collegia, and studies the behaviour and interaction of matter and radiation. The Collegium Physicum is closely related to many other branches, such as the Collegium Alchemis. [/li][li] Collegium Metaphysicum (Sodalicum Aether, Sodalicum Logicum) A branch studying the underlying principles of reality and the interaction of reality and the Immaterium, the Collegium Metaphysicum often examines subjects that are unanswerable to standard scientific experiments. [/li][li] Collegium Alchemis (Sodalicum Analytica, Sodalicum Organica) The Collegium Alchemis is devoted to the discipline of chemistry and alchemy and studies the building blocks of nature, how they form solids, liquids and gases. It also incorporates a religious element and includes study of the Machine God and the Immaterium. [/li][li] Collegium Biologis (Sodalica Medicinae, Sodalicum Genetos, Sodalicum Psykologis) Studying primarily evolution and the characteristics and behaviours of organisms, the Collegium Biologis is one of the widest branches of the Collegia. Specialisation in xenos races is outside this branch, though it is common for members of the Collegium Alienus to begin their education in the Collegium Biologis. [/li][li] Collegium Psykana (Sodalicum Astronomica, Sodalicum Telepathica) The Collegium Psykana is dedicated entirely to the study of human psykers in all their forms; from the war psykers that support the Imperial guard, to astropaths and navigators. As the Adeptus Mechanicus guards its own knowledge well however, so too does the Adeptus Astropathica and the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and it is more than likely that the Adeptus Mechanicus has inferior knowledge in this discipline. It is also speculated that there are forces within the Adeptus Mechanicus that seek to unlock the mysteries of psykers to further the independence of the Adeptus Mechanicus. [/li][li] Collegium Arcanum (Sodalicum Solar, Sodalicum Imperialis) The Collegium Arcanum studies ancient history and particularly history that is kept secret from great parts of the Imperium. As the Adeptus Mechanicus constantly quests for ancient technology and knowledge, it goes without saying that the Collegium Arcanum is a highly important branch of the Collegia. [/li][li] Collegium Aedificatio (Sodalicum Metallurgicus, Sodalicum Technicus, Sodalicum Arma) Dedicated to the art of building in its many forms, the Collegium Aedificatio is a very wide branch, studying everything from architecture to star ships. Obviously, it is closely related with most other Collegia. [/li][li] Collegium Alienus (Sodalicum Orkicus, Sodalicum Eldar) Although the Imperium has studied the alien for over ten thousand years, there are many races that it knows nothing or very little about. Even the orks, who were the first aliens encountered by man in the Age of Technology, remain a mystery in many ways. Still, the Collegia Mechanicus knows a great deal more about aliens than any other organisation in the Imperium save the Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition. While some would accuse the Adeptus Mechanicus of treachery for keeping vital information from the rest of the Imperium, there are still others who would accuse them of heresy for delving so deep into alien lore. [/li][li] Collegium Cybernetica (Sodalicum Bionica, Sodalicum....) The Collegium Cybernetica studies the interaction of biological, mechanical, and electronic systems. It is one of the most honoured branches of the Collegia, and its popularity typically makes difficult competition between young scholars. The Collegium Cybernetica deals with subjects such as body augmentation and the creation of machine spirits. [/li][li] Collegium Titanica The legendary Titan Legions have their own Collegium, dedicated to educating crew and support personnel for the and to research and development of Titans. The Collegium Titanica is especially concerned with uncovering ancient technology that might help to learn the secrets of ancient machines such as the nigh irreplaceable Imperator class titans.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 16, 2004 20:43:57 GMT -5
Though there are many other organisations within the Imperium that do various research, none can match the expertise and the resources that the Adeptus Mechanicus has gathered over the millennia. What type of research are you talking about? Technological? Theological? The sentence might also read better if you put "While other organisations in the Imperium engage in ?technological? research, none can match the expertise and the resources..." etc. Those who aim to supersede the researchers of the Adeptus Mechanicus will soon find that if they follow the rules and ethics of this galaxy-wide organisation, it is an impossible race against billions of the best scientists the Cult Mechanicus has to offer. Does this not present a very specific image of the adeptus mechanicus? I'm not necessarily saying that it is incorrect, just that it represents the "Adeptus Me-Can-icus" approach a bit too rigidly. I believe the 'sense' of it is right, however, just that it would be best put another way. Those who aim to succeed by breaking the rules and ethics of the Adeptus Mechanicus, on the other hand, are guilty of techno-heresy and can expect swift sanction. <grin> After the adeptus mechanicus has stolen their ideas and written it up as STC, assuming that they decide to release it to the Imperium? In the Adeptus Terra, the Emperor has set the position and immunity of the Adeptus Mechanicus in stone and the Adeptus Mechanicus is needed to assist other organisations in everything from the building and operation of star ships for the Imperial Navy to the training of Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. ...one’s position on the path of the Omnissiah, from the ignorant student to the enlightened master. Care should be taken here. The Emperor was viewed as the Omnissiah - the "All Deliverer" - that would offer up to the adeptus mechanicus all the knowledge that would bring them to the Machine God and that perfect, singular point of all-understanding. Only problem is that this is often the crutch that people use to prop up weak arguments that the Emperor is the Machine God, or at least an aspect of some larger entity of Law... (And if you go by the really wacko arguments, the Emperor becomes part C'tan because all understanding of technology ultimately derives from the C'tan! ) And, of course, you've got to decide what the Machine God is. Is it an abstract entity or, like other Warp Powers, is it gaining coherence in the warp after billions and trillions have worshipped it over more than ten millennia? Personally I'm rather fond of the idea that the Machine God has become 'attached' (or was created) within and as part of the Holy Altar system... but that's because I rather like the concept of 'gestalt consciousness' and 'ghosts in the machine'; something more than you bargained for! Hence, the authority of the members on top of the hierarchy often comes from respect more than power. In this regard, the Adeptus Mechanicus is a structural mix between the rigid Adeptus Administratum and the fluid Inquisition. What is the basis of such 'power'? Knowledge, surely. Thus those with more knowledge have more power, since that brings them closer to the Machine God? ...Adeptus Mechanicus performs all internal administration without the help of the Administratum or any outside organisations... Sodalica ergonomicus!? The members of the Adeptus Mechanicus do not consider servitors a part of the hierarchy themselves... Because of knowledged coupled to the idea of 'spirit'? is the line between theoreticians and practitioners... An adminitration is not necessarily a 'theoretician'... Scholars and acolytes have not yet undergone the Rite of Initiation and have not been blessed with any augmentations. I would suggest that the discussion on the continuum between the polar ideas of "Adeptus Me-can'icus" and "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" should be taken into account. A 'novice' that joins with the adeptus mechanicus should not necessarily be on the path of enlightenment. Rather, there must be something else in operation to allow most 'techpriests' not to 'understand' what they're doing...? The rest of the information is the whole Inquistorial 'apprentice' system... erm, that's not to say that it is inappropriate! This augmentation is implanted into the brain and allows direct communion with machines and other members with similar implants. Aka 'neural coprocessor'... And cool idea, BTW. Again, I would say that it should be tempered by the above comment. The Tech Priests (Sacerdos)... Just a warning... that looks horrendously like my terminology for TechPriests. People might have some other preferences than my pigeon latin. Furthermore, I'm still (because of the above) firmly of the opinion that you can be a "Tech Priest" and still not know too much about what you're doing... Upon becoming a Magos, a Tech Priest must travel to Mars to undergo the Rite of Magi, also known as the Rite of First Light. Cool... Those who do survive, are not only the most talented and successful of tech priests, but also the strongest of mind and body. But surey this is a body that is almost entirely machine? Saying it in this way conforms to the 'heroic' imagery of 40k, but inappropriately so I would say. Should a Magos choose the path of the leader, he can be given the rank of Arch Magos. Again, care should be taken here. Perhaps those who have advanced to a certain point but can make no further leaps are re-routed into administration? Of course, this makes no-never-mind when it comes down to your definition of the power of the Arch Magi... they are powerful. To members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Arch Magi are sacred- the perfection of the holy bond between human mind and mechanical body. Fair enough. But here's something: Should we lose sight of what is truly important to the adeptus mechanicus, at least arguably? That is? Knowledge, of course. ...that they serve only as links between the High Altar of Knowledge and the Fabricator General on Mars and the countless servants of the Machine God. Technically speaking, servomats act as machines. They are without doubt the humans in the Imperium possessing most knowledge, as the fragile remains of their mortal body is crafted into titanic cogitator machines... This is quite interesting and actualy gets back to the original ideas on the "Philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus". The above point would therefore be invalidated since these would be the 'conscious controls' of the servomats themselves, the CPU as it were. As one of the High Lords of Terra, the Fabricator General is one of the twelve most powerful men in the galaxy... Powerful people, I would suggest. Remember that the canonical 'fluff' has, for some reason, the Cannoness of the Adepta Sororitas as being able to sit on the senatorum imperialis. ... Comments on the collegia to follow, but it looks good from a quick skim reading. ;D
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Post by CELS on Oct 17, 2004 12:09:59 GMT -5
What type of research are you talking about? Technological? Theological? The sentence might also read better if you put "While other organisations in the Imperium engage in ?technological? research, none can match the expertise and the resources..." etc. It was technological, and you're right. Do you have a suggeston on how to put it? I felt that it was important to establish the unique position of the Adeptus Mechanicus in the Imperium. Their survival depends on their superior knowledge, and considering their experience and resources, I don't think anyone can match the Adeptus Mechanicus without commiting techno-heresy. If they do decide to release it to the Imperium, they might claim it as their own, but probably not deal out death sentences unless someone objected. If it is indeed techno-heresy (based on forbidden warp lore, xenos biology, etc), it will probably never leave the A.M., and death sentences will follow. I'm fully aware of all this, but I feel that I was clear enough to avoid misunderstanding. I will explain better though, in the part where I discuss the Machine God. And yes, it's quite likely that I will steal your new idea Seems like a good place to talk about the Omnissiah too. The Machine God definitely exists, and I'm quite happy with your concept of the 'gestalt consciousness'. What I have not figured out, is the nature and abilities of the Machine God. Can the Machine God create Avatars, for example? (disregarding Titans, since these are made by men) Certainly. LoL! How very 40k... A servitor does have a spirit, but it lacks knowledge and reflection. I gave an example of an administrator as a practitioner. The Adeptus Mechanicus consider it the path of enlightment. That doesn't mean the novices are learning the complex workings of machines. Consider the asian philosophies, where one can gain further enlightment by performing simple tasks. I should hope not Not my idea, but I agree. Tempered by the fact that they may not understand the function of the 'neural coprocessor', you mean? Rest assured, I used your terminology, and the terminology of another A.M. fan (the guy who combined the Liber Mechanicus with your ideas), but I did use a dictionary as well. 'Sacerdos' is latin for priest, so I figure it would be ok. What do you mean by 'not know too much'. As in thinking that oiling your screw driver will make it happy? Yes, it's almost entirely machine, but they still consider it their body, I think. How is it inappropriate? I honestly don't see the problem with my system, fluff-wise. Did I lose sight of it? I agree that I should mention it more clearly in the Magi-part. I focussed so much on the augmentations that they started sounding like Iron Hands. Will fix. LoL! A fair point. Especially considering that the Fabricator General could be female too. Thanks, this has been helpful. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the Collegia.
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Post by Destecado on Oct 19, 2004 17:39:04 GMT -5
Erm.... what was the question? Does Legio Cybernetica build servitors? Not according to fluff. Should Legio Cybernetica be called Legio Robotica? According to fluff, the robots of Legio Cybernetica have some kind of biological brain, similar to the Machine Spirits of Land Raiders, except that they do not have spirits. Cybernetic is defined as "The theoretical study of communication and control processes in biological, mechanical, and electronic systems, especially the comparison of these processes in biological and artificial systems", so the name Legio Cybernetica is most appropriate. Could Legio Cybernetica be an army of servitors ('cyborgs') instead of robots? Yep, but I'd much rather scrap the name and call this army Praetorns of the Tech Guard, to avoid confusion. Might I offer a compromise with regards to the whole Legio Cybernetica debate. I do feel that there is some possible fertile ground for including the Legio Cybernetica within the Anargo Sector. As many have voiced, I do not see this as a front line combat role, but perhaps one less hard and costly in men and material. there are several worlds within the Sargassos Subsector that have populations of 10 or less people. One of the ideas that I have for these systems were as Sentry worlds. They could perhaps serve as supply depots in order to keep a cache of weapons available within the Subsector should the need arise. Perhaps these Sentry worlds could be guarded by the last vestiges of the Legio cybernetica within the sector. this would allow the Legio to exist, but in a much diminished capacity within the Sector. During the Great Crusade after the Mezzan War, the Legio would have been important with the great loss of troops during the war. As new units were brought in or raised from the local populace, their power would have wained. It might make for some interesting scenarios (for the role playing game) as well as for the over all fluff to see a former institution of the Adeptus Mechanicus now on its last legs. It is slowly being phased out by the passage of time in much the same manner that the horse cavalry was phased out of the U.S. Army. Those few remaining vestiges are left to guard unimportant sectors or only serve now as museum pieces....heirlooms of a passed age. Is that a reasonable manner in which to present them. CELS, I also wanted to ask when you get to the section about the factions, policies and paradigm of the Adeptus Mechanicus, if you were going to include anything about the possibility of them have their origins (or at least partially) in the cults that tried to remake themselves in the image of machines 9from the Mezzan fluff)? EDIT:
Actually thinking about the Legio Cybernetica a little more the idea of one or a couple of humans isolated with robots reminds me alot of a great old science fiction movie Silent Running (with Bruce Dern). except instead of watching over and maintaing the last forests, they are watching over and maintaining huge stockpiles of weapons.
The great juggernaughts of war stand silent or perhaps have been reprogrammed by the sparce inhabitants to act as surrogate friends to fight back the boredom and tedium....I see a few possible story ideas already.
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Post by CELS on Oct 20, 2004 6:42:31 GMT -5
Destecado, I invite you to continue the discussion on the Legio Cybernetica in the PPL forum, where it has already been started. For a reason But I'll reply to your post there. As for having factions, philosophies and paradigms partly originate from the Mezzan culture... Keep in mind that the politican factions and the philosophies I described are supposed to be found all over the galaxy, from Ultima Macharia to Macragge. They will be found in many different forms (like you have many different democratic parties all over the world at present), and they will have a different background on each world. One thing that I'm very clear on, is that the Adeptus Mechanicus hates 'soulless' machines such as the Iron Men. Soulless machines are to the Adeptus Mechanicus what Chaos is to the Ordo Malleus. Yes, there are some that seek it, but they are few and in hiding. Hmm.. now that you mention it though, I guess my article is shaded by my hate of 'robots' in 40k, because the Adeptus Mechanicus seems too monolithic in the sense that everyone hates soulless machines. One of the reasons for this, is that I consider radicals in this respect even more rare than Horusians and similar radicals in the Inquisition. When GW lists the Horusians as one of the most important factions of the Inquisition however, that leads [almost] everyone to believe that every tenth Inquisitor is a Horusian. Big mistake. So, I shall remedy this situation, and include something on the few radicals that actually see the Iron Men as an unfortunate consequence of a good idea, and I will be very clear about their few numbers. Apart from that, Destecado, I'm interested in hearing any other comments you may have, beyond trying to connect your Mezzan to what I wrote.
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Post by Destecado on Oct 20, 2004 9:34:04 GMT -5
CELS, I apologize if it seems that I am trying to point to some great conspiracy or relationship between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Mezzan. I am not. I was merely trying to point out that you may want to make reference to the radical cults that arose based on a misconception of the information and data gathered by the scientists who would eventually create the Mezzan culture. It was merely an attempt to pull ideas together and show an interrelationship between organizations and events taking place in the Anargo Sector. I was never trying to say that these cults are the entire basis for the Adeptus Mechanicus. They may however have had some influence on how the beliefs of the Cult Mechanicus were shaped. While it does provide a link and perhaps an explanation of why the Mezzan reacted to the Adeptus Mechanicus in the manner that they did. It is not meant to be a defining feature of the Adeptus Mechanicus...mearly a foot note of their long history. I will also post any further ideas or info about the Legio Cybernetica in the other thread. I'll post ideas (here) on the Adeptus Mechanicus as they come to me.
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Post by CELS on Oct 20, 2004 10:42:53 GMT -5
Wow. That's not at all what I meant, dear Destecado. I just hoped you had some other comments on my article, since you tend to have something clever to say from time to time. I tend to get disappointed when people reply to my posts by trying to connect it with their own posts. "Perhaps my world can make weapons for Proteus", "Perhaps my Guardsmen could save Nagoma from the Dark Eldar", "Perhaps my culture could affect the Adeptus Mechanicus"...
I know, I know. I complain a lot ;D
My article on the Adeptus Mechanicus was meant to describe the entire galaxy-spanning organisation, and to be 'neutral'. Though the Mezzan might have had some effect on the paradigms of Proteus, I really don't think that they would affect the Adeptus Mechanicus as a whole. The Mezzan are probably only one of hundreds (if not thousands) of empires with DAoT technology discovered during the Great Crusade, so why would just this culture have such a significant impact?
Anyway... If you have suggestions for the paradigms of Proteus, I'd be very interested in hearing that. Keep in mind though, that I consider any pro-Mezzan group to be very radical.
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