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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 21, 2004 7:16:55 GMT -5
I could see a unit of Imperial Guardsmen left for dead on some world, quiet possible. They somehow manage to survive/get off world but know they are considered dead. The Tau Gue'vesa'la auxiliaries show that this certainly can and does happen and can be on a relatively large scale. I can also see this happening where the local PDF is put down by the IG in a rebellion, or where small empires are (re)integrated by force into the Imperium. You could end up with America following the Civil War. It would behoove the survivors to get off planet before order is fully restored following the collapse of resistance - the Inquisition and the Arbites aren't forgive and forget types and 'I was just following orders' isn't likely to sway them. Whole units could easily end up without a home - now add in warp capable civilian ships who've just been told they need an Imperial Charter to fly their usual routes and, oops you were on the wrong side of this fight so you don't get one. You end up with (small r) rogue traders and men with nothing to lose, bad attitudes and lasguns. This has traditionally lead to piracy, organized crime or mercenary activities.
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Post by Destecado on Jul 27, 2004 8:56:13 GMT -5
The Tau Gue'vesa'la auxiliaries show that this certainly can and does happen and can be on a relatively large scale. These are not really mercenary units, but are Tau Human reserves. Do they fight for the Tau directly or for Commander Farsight? I think they originally came about because an explanation was needed for what happened to the humans left behind after the failed Damoclese Crusade. They were also intended to take the place of the Kroot if some one wanted to field a themed army around the splinter faction represented by Commander Farsight. It may be interesting if there are any tau influnces in the ASP to perhaps have them come from human mercenary groups supported by or supporting Commander Farsight. I can also see this happening where the local PDF is put down by the IG in a rebellion, or where small empires are (re)integrated by force into the Imperium. You could end up with America following the Civil War. It would behoove the survivors to get off planet before order is fully restored following the collapse of resistance - the Inquisition and the Arbites aren't forgive and forget types and 'I was just following orders' isn't likely to sway them. Whole units could easily end up without a home - now add in warp capable civilian ships who've just been told they need an Imperial Charter to fly their usual routes and, oops you were on the wrong side of this fight so you don't get one. You end up with (small r) rogue traders and men with nothing to lose, bad attitudes and lasguns. This has traditionally lead to piracy, organized crime or mercenary activities. I was intending to have perhaps a mercenary or trading combine that represents a remanant of the Age of Strife Era Culture that existed within the Sargassos Subsector. This group won't represent a force superior to those of the Imperium standard. They are more like vagabonds and space merchants who travel from system to system. For the most part I see them as space gypsies. They have some technical expertise, plus trade in odd curios and information. Most systems tolerate them, because they can be a useful and deniable asset.
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 27, 2004 12:45:05 GMT -5
I agree the Gue'vesa'la are not mercenaries - the point is that a large number of trained combat personnel (and one presumes support personnel as well) *were* left behind in the Damocles Crusade and in the expansion of the Tau empire before and afterwards. This suggests that background stories involving human mercenaries based on displaced/captured IG forces are easily supportable in the fluff... though there is the one proviso that there are very few races who would capture IG troops who would let them live.
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Post by Minister on Jul 28, 2004 9:18:45 GMT -5
Well, with the Imperium's renowned policies on the treatment of xenos populations, that's hardly surprising, is it?
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Post by orangesm on Jul 28, 2004 17:39:18 GMT -5
What about Xenos mercs? The Eldar Ranger who hires out his services while collecting information for the Farseers, or just to make it by in a hostile galaxy. The Kroot band who is just trying to get hold of some more advanced weaponary like Meltas. This are odviously illegal by Imperial law but then how do the get jobs and make money?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 29, 2004 0:39:30 GMT -5
What about Xenos mercs? The Eldar Ranger who hires out his services while collecting information for the Farseers, or just to make it by in a hostile galaxy. Feel free to replace 'farseers' with 'craftworlds' there...
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Post by orangesm on Jul 29, 2004 9:58:37 GMT -5
The question stands... I have only recently delved into this forum and have concerned myself primerly with The Imperium. I am unsure of even what Segmentum the Sector is and what races are nearby. It would be interesting for the Role Playing side of things (Inquistor stuff maybe) or even some interesting games in 40k (a squad of Eldar Rangers hired by some Trade Cartel owner to hurt the competition, only the competition has some hired ex-Guardsmen to defend its property), could be rather interesting quiet games...
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Post by Destecado on Jul 29, 2004 11:23:50 GMT -5
I think that we need to also address a misunderstanding about the role of 'mercenaries". I don't view these groups as people hired soley to fight a stand up war or to provide security. These groups could provide other functions as well. If any of you have played cyberpunk or shadowrun, then you may have an idea of what I mean.
Mercenaries could be free lance groups hired to eleiminate a political rival or gang infringing on their employers profits in illicit trade. They could also be hired for some technical expertise such as being able to fix or "rig" equipment. the mercenary hired could be a rogue psyker with her trust body guards who handle delicate jobs of a mystic nature.
While it is true that most groups might be hired as muscle, we should not pigeon hole them into that role. There are many other jobs that might require the hiring of an outside professional.....expndable assets.
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Post by orangesm on Jul 29, 2004 17:31:50 GMT -5
Destecado makes a very good point that I totally agree with. Mercs could very well behave like 'Shadowrunners' taking missions against political and corperate opponents trying to even the playing field or gain that little advantage needed to corner the 'market'.
A merc party could behave a little like an inquistors retinue - capable of doing a wide variety task and doing it well.
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 3:02:45 GMT -5
So, to summarize.... in the Anargo sector, three types of mercenaries may appear. 1) Professional, licensed mercenaries, working for a mercenary company that is approved by the Imperium (through the Adeptus Administratum and Adeptus Arbites, probably). These mercenary companies are regulated by the Lex Imperialis, and are strictly controlled by Imperial agents. Mercenary companies should, in theory, not be a part of larger conglomerates, to avoid huge corporations with private armies. There are strict weapon restrictions for mercenary companies, and any kinds of weapons of mass destruction, such as biological or nuclear weapons are obviously forbidden. Likewise, any space ship (with or without warp drives) are prevented from carrying anything but short range, defensive weapons, far inferior to the weapons used by the Imperial Navy, even if they could afford those. Registered and licensed mercenaries who break the law, lose their charter, and are either put out of business, or left with working as unregistered mercenaries, outside the law. An example of registered and chartered mercenaries can be found in the novel Malleus of the Eisenhorn trilogy, by Dan Abnett - the Vessorine Janissaries. 2) Unregistered mercenaries. These come in all shapes and sizes, and have no rights or licenses that set them apart from normal citizens. They are thus punished as normal for assault and murder, should they be caught and brought to justice. From lowlife thugs and gangsters, to rogue psykers or even death cult assassins, unregistered mercenaries are outlaws and often killed at sight if recognised. Hiring unregistered mercenaries, of course, is just as illegal as taking work as an unregistered mercenaries. 3) Xenos mercenaries. Even worse than unregistered human mercenaries, all xenos are usually killed at sight on most worlds, should they be foolish enough to wander into contact with Imperials. Xenos mercenaries are typically very expensive, but far superior to most human mercenaries in their specialty. No Xenos mercenaries can be registered and licensed in the Imperium, as aliens (as a rule of thumb) are considered enemies of Mankind. Of course, that just means they have to be a bit more clever with their disguise. A well known example of a Xenos mercenary / assassin / bounty hunter, is Krashrak the Stalker. Of course, xenos mercenaries might be better discussed in the appropriate alien forum Now, my question is.. what exactly are registered mercenaries allowed to do? Obviously, you don't want them going around killing Adeptus Arbites, charter or no charter. So who can they kill? Are they indeed allowed to kill at all, except in situations where the economy of their employer is threatened directly, such as the event of a robbery? Can they kill innocent civilians, women and children? Are they allowed to carry guns on worlds where no guns are allowed, except for the Adeptus Arbites?
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Post by Dazo on Jul 30, 2004 4:01:58 GMT -5
No obviously not, Arbite jurisdiction would supercede the mercenaries so they would be compelled to co-operate with the law.
Yes those are the situations i would see them allowed to employ deadly force. I dont see them as a private army more of a hired security force and body guards. Also the world they are on would effect how they operate, I can't really see them as being necesary on a civilised world or at least not needed in large numbers.
I would hope not, if they are that unproffetional they should lose their lisence and be charged with murder.
Probably not, though if they were in the employers private compound they might have weapons, or these kinds of security force may be able to attain a permit
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 30, 2004 6:51:08 GMT -5
In the world of 40k, there's no such thing as innocent women and children. There's simply important women and children and unimportant women and children, and frankly you can kill as many of the latter as you can get away with (i.e. they don't negatively impact the economic and social functioning of the planet in question and none of their survivors is powerful enough to have you killed personally or rich enough to hire people to do it).
In the quasi-feudal world of 40k, I have no problem seeing most noblemen and certainly most large industrial concerns having large numbers of men under arms. I also see these being primary sources of "law" enforcement. Arbites are IMO chiefly the political police, not criminal police. They are there to stop threats to Imperial Security, not to maintain peace and tranquility. Indeed, the Arbites would probably consider that there is much to be said for a significant amount of strife to keep the population of Hive cities down. When this strife threatens the efficiency of the Hive (and its ability to meet its obligations to the Imperium), out come the Power Mauls.
The Empire doesn't mollycoddle its citizens - if you're not important enough to be able toa fford private security or live in a secured area, the Empire doesn't have the resources or any interest in protecting you. I would expect much/most "law enforcement" (more accurately, maintenance of a certain level of order and implementing swift and bloody retribution against those who break the "peace") at the street level to be done by organized crime factions.
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 10:58:18 GMT -5
We have been presented with two extremes, it seems. On the one hand, you have Dazo, who apparently believes that mercenaries in 40k are only security guards and body guards, with no other rights than those of normal citizens. On the other hand, you have ErnestBorgnine; In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only mercenaries who can kill as many as they want as long as it doesn't affect the Imperium as a whole Let me begin by rolling my eyes at the latter While 40k is known for its grim and moody quotes, such as 'innocence proves nothing' or 'whatever happens, you will not be missed', these do not really describe the Imperial society. Many (if not most) worlds in the Imperium have law systems and law enforces that keep people from just going around killing anyone who gets in their way. There are such things as innocent women and children, even in 40k. Perhaps not in the deepest pits of Necromunda, but you must understand that this is a special world. I would argue that the civilised worlds (literally) that are seen in the Eisenhorn novels, the Ravenor novel, Crossfire, and many other Black Library publications, represent the majority of Imperial worlds. This might be the grim darkness of the far future, but I do not see mercenaries killing people at will, as long as "they don't negatively impact the economic and social functioning of the planet in question and none of their survivors is powerful enough to have you killed personally or rich enough to hire people to do it" Sorry, I don't agree with this in the slightest. Murder is punished by a life or death sentence on most worlds, as I see it. That doesn't mean that all worlds are able to bring criminals to justice. I'd like to say that I choose a golden middleway, but I don't quite see one, I'm afraid. I don't think it makes sense for mercenaries to be given a 'license to kill' by the Administratum, which allows them to kill people on worlds where you risk a death sentence even by stealing. I don't quite see such worlds, such as Tryphon, tolerating offworlders who go around killing people because someone from another sector payed them. On the other hand, I don't want chartered mercenaries to just be normal security guards. I guess a possible middleway is that the mercenaries are allowed to carry guns and even infantry support weapons such as heavy stubbers, on worlds that would not normally allow them to be carried. That doesn't mean that they're allowed to use them at will however, but they do have permission to use them to prevent considerable financial losses for their employers. Example; A mercenary is walking down the streets of Tryphon, when he meets a stranger. He says 'hello' to the stranger, but the stranger doesn't return the greeting, so the mercenary kills him. This is wrong and would result in the mercenary losing his license and being punished as a criminal. Example; A mercenary is standing guard in front of a pawnshop when a kid spills a soft drink on the store owner's sofa. Since this is a financial loss, the mercenary sprays the kid across the wall with his heavy stubber. This is wrong. Example; A mercenary is standing guard in front of a pawnshop when a band of terrorists approach the shop with molotov cocktails and sharp rocks. Fearing that they may cause severe financial losses for the store owner, the mercenary sprays the terrorists across the street with his heavy stubber. This is correct mercenary behavior, and would be totally approved by the Adeptus Arbites
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Post by Dazo on Jul 30, 2004 11:37:31 GMT -5
Lol, dude you made me spill my tea, lol, oh man ;D:'(
A golden middle way eh, how's this. On a primitive world, a company owned mining world or in the depths of a hive a mercenary force can behave like a military outfit, kill anyone they consider a threat to their employers. But on a civilised world or in higher hive levels they must respect the law, in essence be glorified bodyguards, and only use deadly force as a last resort.
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 11:48:23 GMT -5
Lol, dude you made me spill my tea, lol, oh man ;D:'( Sorry about that Yep, that sounds about right, and fits with my suggestion above.
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