|
|
Post by KeirLeslie on Jul 4, 2004 17:15:02 GMT -5
What are people’s thoughts on the nature of the Imperial Cult?
When I say Imperial Cult I’m not talking about the “accultured” versions which obviously vary greatly, but the “official” version. I have seen a lot of reference to this but have not seen a specific, detailed view on it.
This could be quite important in defing how devout people will act and how great are the demands of the Church upon individuals.
By detailed I mean that whilst we all know the Imperials worship the Emperor and hate the Alien, are there prohibitions on alcohol?
Do they have to be blessed to be married. Is divorce legal?
Personally I have some ideas but what do you think?
|
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Jul 4, 2004 21:31:45 GMT -5
It does seem that the Imperial Cult has quite draconian views on women, for one. I don't really have any specific sources, but in general they seem to treat them in the same way as the catholic church did some four hundred years ago.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 5, 2004 0:15:40 GMT -5
Wow... big kettle of fish just opened.  Probably one of the reasons that I tend to ignore the Imperial Cult since it tends to mess everything up, more so with the frequent analogies made between the Catholic Church (which I don't see as a bad thing) and, from there, to pre-Renaissance Europe (which I do see as a bad thing and, also, not directly applicable). My general real-distrust and distaste for 'organised religion' seems to even extend into the 40k universe (probably can tell with my jumping on the Anargan Theocracy ). Suffice to say that just as the adeptus mechanicus is divided into philosophies (not forgetting factions/paradigms) and the Inquisition into its factions, I have the adeptus ministorum divided into as-of-yet unformed Schools. These reflect different points of philosophy (internal) and external orientation (i.e. similar to philosophy and faction in the advocated form of the adeptus mechanicus)... As to specific approaches? I've no overall preference although I, too, have always gotten the idea that women tend to be second class citizens. Maybe that's more to do with the fact that the only women you tend to hear about are the odd scholar, the Joan of Arc figures (i.e. Sabatt) and the adepta sororitas. Perhaps a manifestation of the fact that at GW's primary demographic (see the statistics/questionnaire thread in General; help needed!) tends to feel that girls are 'ick' and 'smell of poo'... The economic significance of the adeptus ministorum is something that has to be done with extreme care. They are not in the same position of power as the medieval Christian Church was. Do they truly have the ability to levvy tithes against the individual, more so as they are traditionally defined? Or, more reasonably perhaps, is a proportion of the 'economic production' of the world granted to the Imperium - e.g. the tithe! - contain a proportion which extends to the adeptus ministorum? Anargo's economic shift from 'tithes' to 'land rents' is a specific manifestation on that world (i.e. the previous Anargan Theocracy) and, while practice of the Imperial Cult is unadulterated, there is still no tithe per se. However, most people do contribute a proportion of their wages to the Imperial Cult... But again, I get swayed by the economic and categorisation side of things. Perhaps you should share your opinions KeirLesllie? Discussion tends to move faster and with less of a tendency to veer OffT when a stance is taken early on. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Jul 5, 2004 3:45:14 GMT -5
Note: "The Church" as I speak of it here is the central policy of the Ecclesiarchy. Sects may deviate to a greater or lesser extent from this without causing any great problems.
On the subject of whether females are thought of by the church as second-class citizens? I would say not. Whilst many of the persons within the church may consider males superior, policy does not. The Imperium was forged in war and is maintained in the larger part by more of the same (clerks may keep it running, but they are seldom beatified for it). That, combined with the patriarchal outlook of so many of the aristocracies, is sufficient to make females in positions of power unusual.
As for things like alcohol? Moderate consumption is acceptable, and may be part of some ceremonies, but the church takes a rather dim view of those who are intemperate in consumption, particularly as this often leads to indecent behaviour.
|
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Jul 5, 2004 4:28:32 GMT -5
For me the Imperial Cult is an entity equal not to Catholicism, and not even to Christianity, but to common union of Islam, Christianity and Judaism in their common parts, namely monotheism plus stuff from the Old Testament used by all. This means that no real norms regarding women, alcohol are present. Those norms are just details set by individual cults. It really has only one common idea The Emperor has a destiny to lead mankind. He battled enemies of mankind and won the struggle against arch-enemy. Now we live in his realm, made long ago. All the rest are details.  |
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 5, 2004 5:19:49 GMT -5
Problem you're automatically running into is the lack of definition, even with people who like thinking about the adeptus ministorum. Discussion inherently focusses around manifestation on worlds rather than policy... Indeed, could not one argue that there is very little to the Imperial Cult other than a few doctrinal statements? And zholud, there's really no need to "shout". |
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Jul 5, 2004 8:47:39 GMT -5
And zholud, there's really no need to "shout". I just wanted to point the main concise ideas of Cult, selecting it in bold. I CRY THIS WAY.  As for the women as second class citizens, cannot agree, pointing that it is a wide variety of planets that significantly differ. For example if Adepta Sororitae are untouchables in the sense that don’t mess with them if you want to live a little bit longer. Quite probable in such worlds with significant Sorotitae presence ‘ordinary’ women are ever enjoy privileges in comparison with men. So the true answer is of course, it depends… |
|
|
|
Post by KeirLeslie on Jul 7, 2004 12:31:19 GMT -5
My views.
Again, this refers to "standard" with deviations being acceptable.
I think that despite the Catholic trappings as far as views on individuals taking drugs, getting divorces etc go the Imperial Cult is almost Puritan.
A certain sense of denouncing sin in others and so on.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 7, 2004 13:32:01 GMT -5
A certain sense of denouncing sin in others and so on. That would be consistent with the 'fluff' from Watson's Inquisitor/Draco... but one would naturally have to question whether the 'fluff' from Terra can be taken as representative, more so with the 'fluff' from other BL novels...? |
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jul 9, 2004 1:28:52 GMT -5
So much for the big kettle of fish ;D Did you not have more ideas, KeirLeslie? Personally, I don't think the Imperial Cult or Cult Imperialis is too similar to the Catholic church. I don't see why divorce would be a big deal, and I've seen nothing to suggest that premarital intercourse (my, aren't we being formal today  is forbidden by the Imperial cult. Then again, I've not read too much about the average citizens of the Imperium. I have noticed that Eisenhorn and several of his followers have had premarital intercourse though. Oh, and there have been incidents within unisex regiments such as the Tanith 1st and the Valhallan 597th. Probitions on alchohol... again, I can only point to the fluff portraying the warriors and traders of the Imperium, and they all seem to have at least one bottle of amasec within arm's reach at all times. As for view on women... there are female politicians, female governors, female Inquisitors, female soldiers, female commissars, female law enforces... well, there seems to be very little discrimination between genders in the Imperium. So I would very much disagree with Kage and Sojourner here. On average, I would say that most Imperial citizens have a very strong faith and follow the teachings of the Imperial creed closely. As KeirLeslie says though, the "accultured versions" vary greatly. It seems I would mostly side with Minister and zholud on this one. Must be the first time that's happened The ten commandments do not exist in the Imperial cult in any form. It does not tell you that you shouldn't lie, that you shouldn't desire your friend's wife or your siblings. Rather, it teaches that humanity is the light and that the alien, the traitor and the mutant is the darkness. It is also very war-orientated, like Minister says. It speaks of comeradery between humans, tolerance of pain, sacrifice, and not least of all - the Emperor. There must be a good deal about the life of the Emperor, the early days of the Imperium and the Horus Heresy. Probably not remotely accurate, but there you go. I seem to recall a legend with an eagle and a snake, symbolizing the Emperor and Horus... can anyone help me with this? It might have been from the Black Library... |
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Jul 9, 2004 2:36:12 GMT -5
Do you also remember Marauder Bombers from the same place? If so, it was in an old Inferno! story (from the one with the big burning daemon-thing on the cover, one of only three I actually own).
|
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jul 9, 2004 3:28:52 GMT -5
Do you also remember Marauder Bombers from the same place? If so, it was in an old Inferno! story (from the one with the big burning daemon-thing on the cover, one of only three I actually own). Yeah, now that you mention it, I believe it was from the briefing of a Marauder wing commander. I've never read Inferno though, so it must either be from Execution Hour or Shadow Point, OR it could be from that Maelstrom collection of smaller novels. |
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 9, 2004 13:18:27 GMT -5
On average, I would say that most Imperial citizens have a very strong faith and follow the teachings of the Imperial creed closely. As KeirLeslie says though, the "accultured versions" vary greatly. I would say that acculturated forms of the Imperial Cult are far more common than some might argue. Furthermore that there is a natural assumption that "Imperial Cult = everyone believes in god". Admittedly it does help when you tend to get burned at the stake for not believing, but extension of European concepts without moderation is something that I find... distasteful. One of those overlays that doesn't quite work without significant hammering... and by then you've changed the shape so much that it doesn't look like what you started with. |
|
|
|
Post by Sikkukkut on Jul 11, 2004 4:04:07 GMT -5
Yeah, now that you mention it, I believe it was from the briefing of a Marauder wing commander. I've never read Inferno though, so it must either be from Execution Hour or Shadow Point, OR it could be from that Maelstrom collection of smaller novels. It's from one of Gav Thorpe's "Raptor Squadron" short stories - the first one, from memory. That was in INFERNO; I don't know if it's been in a collection. |
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Jul 11, 2004 6:19:37 GMT -5
Isn’t it Raptor Down in Words of Blood anthology? But there is no story on snake… and seems in Into the Maelstrom does not have this story either. On religious and deeply spiritual society for average Imperium world – I’m unsure about it. lips service – most likely, using in swearing stuff like Emperor’s balls testicles ( censor by CELS) – commonplace, even belief under adverse conditions… there is no atheist under the artillery fire – one not the dumbest man said… but I want to point out that one should not overplay the spiritual behaviour and adhering to all norms… it is on average more like making little sins everyday and redeeming them on Sundays… |
|
Probably one of the reasons that I tend to ignore the Imperial Cult since it tends to mess everything up, more so with the frequent analogies made between the Catholic Church (which I don't see as a bad thing) and, from there, to pre-Renaissance Europe (which I do see as a bad thing and, also, not directly applicable).
is forbidden by the Imperial cult. Then again, I've not read too much about the average citizens of the Imperium. I have noticed that Eisenhorn and several of his followers have had premarital intercourse though. Oh, and there have been incidents within unisex regiments such as the Tanith 1st and the Valhallan 597th.