Frost Bringers Index Astartes (draft)

Just some general points thrown in, boys…

• Duels among SM – clearly mentioned in seminal Space Marine by Ian Watson as quite a common situation. But it is not true fight but test for endurance… those masochistic IF…
  
• On conflict between Chapter leaders – I’d throw in Emperor, be our judge! idea, where to proof your way you have to be placed against impossible obstacles and still win. They started to campaign, looking for higher score but at the end face serious enemy and unite fighting him. Both die in the process, but enemy (Bloodthirster?) is banished, and Chapter reunites.
  
• Open Chapels – cool idea and, BTW, Kage, recalling that SM can survive for some time in vacuum – taking off helmets is true sign of honouring the dead and Emperor through own discomfort/pain.
  
• On battle cry – I’m for the present chant plus resonators that resonate (surprise) the same chant vie the walls/floors of the ships… you hear it with your feet…
  
• On Hydra Condratus – I only wished to incorporate some newer fluff in our text… like Mars sent request for gene-seed located at Hydra Condratus. But I can easily live without it.
  

Oh, man, they are psychotics, and they were meant to be psychotic… guys who run close to you with whirling blades and vox-amplified deafening cries…

Faith, yes, but quite different to that of Ecclesiarchy. For example, see W.King Space Wolf for Fernisian beliefs system…

I don’t think that his language knowledge is superior or inferior to that of educated Imperial servant, but he hardly can be an entertaining speaker. He may say things that are heresies to ordinary Joe Imperium. And an average Marine is quite a vague definition – we have more or less fair amount of info about 18 First Founding legions plus mentions of later foundings. Only Ultramarines in this list are ordinary and in terms of fluff per Chapter ratio they still lags behind Wolves and both Angels…

Read Space Wolf, or Space Marine – in first initiates are nearly killed (thus unlucky ones most likely killed/crippled) fighting each other or different monsters – they are teens and semi-gods Marines do not help them even a little bit. They need solders to protect Emperor and if some die for this case it is their problem. In the second book initiates are press-ganged… I second the present text, not goody marines-babysitters approach

Planet (a) has atmosphere and (b) it goes to warp and cleans off. And amount of radiation in deep space has to be much less due to dark mass

In one of the BL books, maybe Eye of Terror there was marine that thrown his helmet off in deep vacuum (Chaos one I admit) but the fluff mentions that loyal SM may survive in deep vacuum for hours…

I'm amazed to see that Kage post below is soooo close to mine

<grin> I didn't actually bother to read yours until I saw the red text indicating an edit, so don't read too much into it zholud...

I think that we are getting bogged down some what in our discussion and are straying away from the original text. In order to emphasize my points more clearly, I will be providing the section of the text I will be discussing in gold, followed by my comments and observations in normal text.

The Chapter would not be created from raw material alone. The danger from the continuing greenskin presence that justified a new Chapter also meant that a newly-founded and barely-tried Chapter would not be turned loose in the Cruciatine war zone to fend for itself. As a reputable and distinguished Chapter which had already earned campaign honors against the sector’s greenskins, the Silver Skulls were the obvious choice to provide assistance for the fledgling Chapter; when word reached the Sector in 610.M37 that the new Chapter was going ahead, Imperial authorities began delicate diplomatic advances toward the Silver Skulls’ Chapter Master to that end.

The audience with Master Nymean aboard the Silver Skull cruiser Aquila Dianatos was certainly not what the Adeptus envoys had been expecting. Nymean opened the meeting by declaring that the Skulls’ parent Chapter, the Ultramarines, had called upon them to aid in campaigning against the Eldar to the east of Ultramar and that the Chapter was honor- and oath bound to go. On the other hand, they had no intention of relinquishing the obligation they still felt to the Cruciatine Sector and were seeking counsel from Macragge with a view to splitting their fighting force and leaving some elements of the Chapter to continue their work. When the envoys revealed their own reasons for meeting, Nymean responded with delight: the opportunity for the Silver Skulls to father a new Chapter was both a solution to their own difficulty and a chance to earn honor for the Skulls and to leave their own mark upon the Sector in which they had fought. The night after the meeting, Nymean made known to his Chapter what he needed: a core of warriors to remain in the Sector and provide the core and backbone of a new Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

The First Founding was for the most part consisted of the dissolution of the remaining loyal Space Marine Legions into Space Marine Chapters. The Silver Skulls were originally comprised of members of the Ultramarines Legion. Later foundings were reduced to the donation of genetic material from the founding chapter. In the accounts that I have read, I have never seen it mentioned that the Chapter from which the genetic material was derived actually provide marines and other material as well (this is of course for foundings after the First).

It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs. These must be officially sanctioned by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the Emperor himself. Only the Emperor can give permission for the creation of a new chapter. This of course would come through those to whom the emperor “speaks”. It may be that for some reason there were still forces of the Silver Skulls within the Sector as the Frost Bringers arrived, but I do not see them being incorporated into the forces of the Frost Bringers. Perhaps the schism you are looking for arose between these units of the Silver Skulls and the new Chapter.

The questions arise as to why the Silver Skulls were forced to hand over their tithed lands to this new chapter. Were they becoming too big? If we look at the make up of all the Space Marine Chapters, there are some like the Black Templars that far exceed the 10 Companies. Could this be what was happening with the Silver Skulls? How long have the Silver Skulls been in the Anargo Sector? Could it be that they were forming more companies than allowed by the Codex Astartes and they were then the Ultramarines or the Lords of Terra cracked down on the chapter. Perhaps those Companies in excess of their allotted number were incorporated into the new founding. This could lead to the friction from the new young marines coming out to join those already entrenched in the mythos or cult of the Silver Skulls.

The latest of these actions had almost claimed his life: as he led his command squad into the kill-krooza Gargnursnik at the Battle of Morran six months earlier the explosion of a flak turret on the ork craft had scattered his squad and sent Ashkel himself hurtling into space, injured and with his armour partially breached. It had been nearly a week before the Chapter had been able to recover him: although his sus-an organs had been able to combine with his surviving suit systems to preserve his life, he had been badly weakened by the ordeal and was only just returning to active duty.

Ashkel had spent the entire time conscious and aware, and the experience had marked him in the manner of a religious epiphany, a spiritual awakening. He had spent days on end in the ship’s chapels and shrines, and at the viewing ports staring out at the stars. The few operations he had conducted since that time had shown a marked change in his tactics: instead of the more orthodox approaches of using teleports or boarding torpedoes to drive deep into an enemy ship and attack it from the inside, Ashkel had begun to strike at enemy ships beginning at the hulls, systematically breaching deck after deck and using the cold and vacuum of space as a weapon. Against other enemies, perhaps, the approach might have attracted comment since it left a crippled ship far harder to salvage and repair, but Ashkel carried out his cleansings with his usual superb effectiveness and the Imperium had little use for the empty Ork hulks in any event.

The ship’s complement of the Aquila Dianatos volunteered almost to a man to follow Ashkel into his new Chapter. There were a handful who remained behind: some had become uncertain about Ashkel’s change in demeanour and practices since his near-death at Morran, while others were ordered to stay by Nymean so that the Dianatos would not have to rebuild its complement entirely from scratch. Ashkel was well-known to the Silver Skulls’ tech-shrine, where he would often consult with the senior techmarines on the best ways to cripple the components of enemy ships, and he had impressed the staff of the Apothecarion with the speed of his convalescence and his determination to return to duty as a warrior. When the time came, Ashkel had little trouble attracting cliques of Techmarines and Apothecaries to the new Chapter, and Nymean had the foresight to ensure that the new Chapter would have Librarians of sufficient power and discipline to school the psykers they would have to recruit as their successors. That left only the religious corps to be assembled.

His change in tactics would also lead to more Space Marine casualties. This might call into question his fitness for command. If anything, you should have him come up with some radical tactics that actually cause the losses in such boarding actions to be reduced. Anyone can have a vision. It is translating that vision into practical results that separates the true prophets from the clinically deranged.

The way you have set up this story makes it sound as if he has seceded from the Silver Skulls. Such an act normally would bring the Inquisition down upon his head for fear of this splinter faction turning traitor. It also does not fit in with the general fluff of the formation of a new Space Marine Chapter. It may be better to have this occur sometime after the establishment of the Frost Bringers as an explanation for their movement away from the SOP (standard operating procedures) of the Codex Astartes.

Linnaeus and Seljun

Initially the idea of Linnaeus taking on the leadership of the new Chapter was met with great approval, but among the Silver Skulls there was one group that greeted the idea with outright suspicion: the Chaplains, and once it became clear that Ashkel would command the new Chapter Senior Chaplain Seljun sought out Master Nymean to voice his misgivings. Ashkel’s constant vigils in the ship’s shrines were not necessarily a mark of devotion, he told his leader: far from observing the traditional rites for spiritual strengthening after battle-trauma, with the special prayers, reading passages from Guilliman and speaking with the Chaplains, Ashkel was spending more and more time in silent, solitary meditation. The few attempts by Seljun and his fellow Chaplains to draw Ashkel into discussing his religious observances left them profoundly disturbed.

Again this comes down to the formation of the Chapter. How substantial will the presence of the “old guard” from the Silver Skulls be in the chapter makeup? Their objections might not only be about the spiritual well being of the marine in the case of this argument. As you have indicated, Ashkel is also making changes to the manner in which the Frost Bringers fight….areas or tactics not originally codified in the Index Astartes. This cross over into things of a tactical nature rather than of just a spiritual nature might be another source of friction.

To rectify this Ashkel was assigned to read from accounts of the Silver Skulls’ exploits at one of the Aquila Dianatos’ weekly feasts. The hope was that reciting stirring stories of Chapter heroism would rekindle some of Ashkel’s spirit and help him fully regain himself in the eyes of the Chaplains. But Ashkel’s readings were dry and colourless: he did not stumble or misread, but there was no hint of inspiration or passion in him either. The only reading during which he showed any real signs of life was a tale of the First Company’s exploits fighting alongside the White Consuls on the Pleiadyne Crusade in the Segmentum Tempestus, in which the crews of the Silver Skull assault-boats had been caught in a lethal radiation storm while fighting in the flare-zone of Naya-Quintilian, but had been spared by a vision of the Emperor that had miraculously manifested outside their ships and allowed them to close with their target, while the xenophile fighter-crews attempting to fight them died to a man. Ashkel returned to this reading to recite it twice over during the feast, and thereafter had begun to scour the Chapter archives for more accounts of the Silver Skulls’ battles in space.[/i]

This chapter is not the Silver Skulls. Reading of their exploits to glean tactical information or to study the historical interactions of their forces is all well and good, but the Frost Bringers need to build their own litany to recite. Part of reciting the litany is about building Brotherhood and esprit de corp. This is why units in today’s military each have their own unit patches as well as battle honors attached to the company colors. It was one of the reasons that the United States Army Rangers were up in arms when the Black Beret, normally reserved for their units, was issued to all U.S. Army personnel.

The way that the chaplains power is being described is somewhat like that of a doctor. Are you suggesting that the Chaplains have the power to relieve a chapter master of command? What criterion would they use to decide this and to what authority would they submit their report….the High Lords of Terra? Again I reiterate that the inclusion of Marines from another Chapter would probably not occur. One of the reasons behind this is to prevent the Horus Heresy from occurring all over again. If you had one chapter providing not only genetic material, but Marines for several Chapters, who shared a common Chapter cult, then If the parent chapter went rogue, it might take its successors with it. This was part of the reason for originally breaking up the Space Marine Legions. It might also explain why rivalries or infighting between Chapters for the most part go unpunished.

I’ll reserve any further comments for the moment. I think we need to re-examine the sequence of events that I have already commented on. The impression I am getting from reading this Index Astartes article is that the chapter is nothing more than a splinter group of the Silver Skulls. Based on the date of their founding and my readings of the fluff, this is not the standard procedure for the founding of a chapter. If they are a splinter of the Silver Skulls, I think more time needs to be spent explaining why this splinter occurred. The reasons given do not strike me as compelling enough to warrant this departure from general practice.

What are other people’s thoughts?

First of all, no, we are not getting "bogged down" by discussing the nature of the Space Marines of the Frost Bringers chapter. Our creation of the Frost Bringers does not begin and end with with Index Astartes article, and indeed, the discussion of Frost Bringer psychology is important for fiction and RPG, in my opinion.

Now... much has been said since I last posted, so I realize quoting would take up too much space.

[/li][li]On duels between Space Marines... I don't take the written word of Ian Watson very seriously at all. First of all, those novels are OLD, and second of all, they SUCK. In my opinion

[/li][li]On 'polite Space Marines'... I very much agree with Skonar that most Space Marines would know both Low Gothic and High Gothic. They would be also aware of the teachings of the Cult Imperialis, eventhough they do not follow it. You may argue that it does not concern them, but they do maintain relations with Imperial Worlds where they recruit new members. It pays to know the population you're protecting and recruiting from.

Furthermore, both Abnett and William King demonstrate in their novels that Space Marines are able to function socially with people outside their chapter. Take the tea-drinking Space Marine librarian in Xenos, who actually lifts his pinky when taking a sip, and the Wolfblades in the Ragnar novels. Besides, Space Marines might be used in non-violent missions where they are supposed to serve as a reminder of the might of the Imperium rather than being actual soldiers. This would be useful in diplomatic missions with potential rebels ("Before you do anything rash, remember that we have Space Marines to deal with your kind.") or aliens (Ref: The Imperial Fists visiting the Tau)

[/li][li]On Ultramar... this is a special example, and though there are others like it (The Salamanders are an important part of the society on their homeworld, IIRC), this does not represent the majority, in my opinion.

[/li][li]On the temper of Space Marines... Space Marines would have extreme self-control, in my opinion. Their mental discipline is rivalled only by that of Inquisitiors, Assassins and other special groups within the Imperium, which is part of the reason they're so deadly in combat. Still, the Space Marines are very much concerned with honour. They would not be disgraced, nor suffer the disgrace of their chapter.

[/li][li]On the shining knights imagery... There are different Chapters within the Astartes, and not all of them fit with the shining knights imagery. As zholud mentions, the Space Wolves have rather grim methods of recruiting, but the difference between most SM chapters (including SWs) and the Frost Bringers, is that the Frost Bringers are more active in this process. Where the Blood Angels set up a race across the deserts of Baal, the Frost Bringers whip the children ahead of them. Where the Space Wolves set their recruits up to survive in the wild, with wolves and trolls, the Frost Bringers might actually set the recruits in arenas to fight, or even fight the recruits themselves.
The testing process is identical in principle, but they have a different way of doing it.

Still, I agree with Skonar... Space Marines are in many ways the knights in shining armour, something that is seen in fluff. Take for example the incident with the Spatian Gate in Malleus. Chaos attacks an Imperial parade, and the Imperial soldiers and citizens all go crazy. In the midst of the pandemonium, a Space Marine of the Aurora Chapter picks up a fleeing child, cradling him in his arms, saying "This way, this way, out of danger.". Not exactly something most mind-less psycopaths would do.

Granted, not all Space Marines are like that, but the unconditional love of Mankind is found in all loyal Space Marines, in my opinion. Same as all loyal Inquisitors, though some would order Exterminatus more readily than others.

However... I do agree with Skonar in that we've done nothing to explain why the Frost Bringers are like that. When we were still at the concept-stage, we agreed that it would be cool to have a 'mean streak' to them. At present, I'm not really so concerned with this, since they already have an unique character, and we no longer need to fear that they'll be Space Wolf rip-offs. Still, if we do go for the 'mean streak', we need to explain it.

[/li][li]On the Frost Bringer's Fortress-Monastery in the void of space... I have no problem with this. Imperial warships can survive in space. Orbital docks can do it. Space stations can do it. The Rock, fortress-monastery of the Dark Angels, is doing just fine.
Like Kage says, this installation is no more vulnerable to radiation than any of the above either.

[/li][li]The chant... As I've said before, I don't like this, and Skonar has a good point about it jamming communications.. Sure, you could block certain channels to send and receive a messages, occassionaly, but that removes the whole 'cool factor'.
"Death comes, cold comes. Death comes, co- Brother Iseus, get back in line - cold comes. Death comes, cold com- Sniper in the tower. Brother Rafael, get your launcher in position-
Now, where was I? Ah, yes... cold comes. Death comes, cold comes."

Chants are cool for certain circumstances, such as when you've surrounded a band of rebels, and you switch to external speakers, and begin chanting "Cold comes... death comes... cold comes... death comes..."
But I suggest that we leave it for a popular chant, and give them a separate Frost Bringer battle-cry!
"Courage and honour!"
"Primarch - Progenitor, to your glory and the glory of Him on Earth!"
"Blood for the Blood God!"
"Men of Tanith, do you want to live forever!?"
Battle-cries are cool! ;D

[/li][li]The reason for the founding of the Frost Bringers… simple, the Silver Skulls were spread too thin, and the Anargo sector had been too long without any close Space Marine chapters. Looking at the Space Marine Chapters in the nearby sectors, the chapter of my invention wasn’t founded until M39. In the early millennia of the Imperium, the crusade against aliens in the Anargo sector (and possibly nearby sectors) removed all external threats for a while, so there was special need for Space Marines here. Then, as the orks returned and attacks from chaos made this region more vulnerable, the Silver Skulls were unable to properly defend this remote region.

[/li][li]On Frost Bringers being too good at everything… I must disagree with Destecado. Sikkukkut doesn’t make it sound as if they excel at everything, it’s just a brave attempt at making them sound like a Codex chapter rather than a bunch of radicals who limit themselves to space battles. By mentioning their land and armour tactics, he makes them more standard. However… I would suggest that some of the tactics mentioned would be pretty standard, and would be included in the Codex Astartes. Space Marines always try to attack where they can limit their disadvantage of low numbers, and maximize their advantage of superior troops and equipment.

Other than that, I’m worried that by trying to give them character, decisions are made that don’t make a whole lot of sense and we’re steering away from options that might be favorable at times. You can’t always rely on drop pods. Some times, even the Frost Bringers must rely on more static and methodical approaches, like the Imperial Fists, and other times, fast-moving ground forces are favorable (for the latter, check out the scenario on Sistina). I suggest that we emphasize that the Frost Bringers have a tendency of preferring space battles and especially boarding actions, maybe to avoid collateral damage as much as to avoid FB casualties, but that we don’t make a big deal about Frost Bringers showing disdain of important parts of Space Marine battle doctrine. I don’t want them to be too one-dimensional.

[/li][li]On the Frost Bringers being biased against melta-weapons… I agree with Destecado. This does not make sense. They need melta-tech as much as anyone.

[/li][li]On bolters in zero g…. I thought bolters were almost without recoil, as they fire ‘mini-rockets’ rather than bullets.

[/li][li]On Destecado’s mention of ‘espirit de corps’… I agree. The Frost Bringers should be eager to develop their own identity. Still, Space Marines value their heritage, and I imagine that there is a special bond between Chapters formed from the same Primogenitor, and sharing the same Primarch.

I agree that describing Space Marines as Knights in Shining Armor is erroneous. The militant orders of church knights on which they are based have more in common with Samurai than your average knight of the middle ages. The rigid code by which many Space Marines live their lives.

I'm not saying that we should make the chapter into a bunch of Samurais, but the mentality and training appear to mirror much of the Samurais world view. The Samurai were skilled warriors, but they also practiced other skills. There are many famed writers of poetry and philoshophy among the samurai class. Many also practiced the tea ceromony and zen gardening. Many were also devoutly religious.

Perhaps we should look to these skills and the Bushido Code to better define the Space Marines and how they live their lives outside of combat.