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Post by Sojourner on May 30, 2004 10:04:19 GMT -5
***** Sabryan, pronounced Sa-bree-an after its co-founder, Edmund Pontius Sabryan, is the Anargo Sector's largest private constructor of civilian space vessels and the products of its dozen or so foundries are found throughout the Eastern trading bloc. Sabryan have been operating from their original factory on Trireme Apollo for over four hundred years; originally licenced from a small cargo shuttle repair yard on Castus Peak, the Corporation has grown to operate twelve major orbital facilities and employ some eighty thousand Free Labourers.
Sabryan-brand vessels earned their first major accolade in the Cruciatine War, during which some thirty early-model Sabryan S-30's, generally known simply as Sabryan Skiffs, were pressed into service to evacuate many of the important nobility of XXXX. During the operation, while waiting for the delayed escort forces to rendez-vous, the evacuating convoy was attacked by a flotilla of small Ork attack ships and was forced to scatter. The Ork vessels formed a wall and pursued the Skiffs with uncharacteristic discipline and order. Only the rugged construction and nimble handling of the Sabryan ships enabled almost all of their number to escape and evade the Orks until the Naval escorts arrived and chased them off. Since this brief encounter, the S-30 has become known throughout the sector as the Sabryan Gunrunner.
In the present day, the most common Sabryan vessel to be found is the Sabryan Saltire, a tough, powerful light transport with a keel length of 308 metres. Six variations on the design have so far been produced, the largest such order being for sixteen Saltire Delta-fours, an upgraded version sporting an improved drive arrangement and several extra hardpoints. The buyer is a private individual whom the Trading Office of Sabryan ILC. refuse to identify to the public. The local branch of the Administratum are known to be unhappy with this course of events and as such, the transaction in question has been suspended pending investigation by the Adeptus Arbites.
Other vessels which pass through the Anargo sector on regular occasions are the Sabryan Teltos, a basic, large hauler optimised for the transport of bulky, benign cargoes such as ore and grain, and the Sabryan Scimitar, a brand-new design of vessel which is officially classed as a Luxury Corvette, although few doubt that its obvious purpose is that of an escort or fighter craft, though such usage is prohibited by Imperial Law.***** Thoughts? Questions? |
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Post by Kage2020 on May 30, 2004 10:27:09 GMT -5
Interesting... that would put Sabyran as present on Anargo, however. Or, at least, intimately involved with Anargo Secundus... Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on May 30, 2004 22:51:55 GMT -5
Erm...why is that?
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Post by CELS on May 31, 2004 1:01:35 GMT -5
I like it a lot, Sojourner! We need more stuff like this, sure as sure  Kage probably thinks it's too wargame orientated, because of the whole Gunrunner incident, and I might agree. We need to agree on some classifications for civilian ships though... I'll start a new thread for this. Keep it coming! |
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Post by Kage2020 on May 31, 2004 7:08:34 GMT -5
Well, actually no real reason other than the main starship production facilities are based on Anargo Secundus (a far companion to the Anargo main system), plus Anargo itself is heavily into ship construction and component manufacture under franchise from the adeptus mechanicus as well as producing lower-tech versions for distribution to non-Imperial sources... But there is no reason that ships could not be produced elsewhere... just not to the same extent. Furthermore, I'm fairly keen on the idea that the adeptus mechanicus doesn't franchise out warp-drive systems or at least integration facilities so... Well, it just needs a tiny bit more work, that's all. Both in terms of the concept and getting it to mesh into the project as a whole and, of course, getting the project so that it works with the concept... . Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on May 31, 2004 21:50:03 GMT -5
Bearing in mind that Sabryan only supply to the Classis Civiles and as such, don't manufacture the massive bulk transports used by the Mercantilis (Tarask-class and similar), I doubt that warp drives will be a problem - they don't have any!
I'm working on the idea that small vessels such as these are used for 1) intra-system and cross-planet duties and 2) shuttle duty inter-system while being carried by a warp-capable 'mothership'.
Even the Teltos is small enough to fit maybe half a dozen into the cargo capacity of a large 'galactic' transport, as long as that transport is properly configured. I dare say that there are some models of transport which can wholly open their superstructure to accomodate large cargo items such as these.
As for being on Anargo - as I said, this is a private manufacturer of small vessels in an entirely different league to the massive transports used by the Mercantilis, Munitorum, Administratum etc etc. While the facilities operated by Sabryan are capable of manufacturing their vessels at a fair turn of speed, their entire labour capacity would be barely a drop in the ocean compared to the resources and manpower taken to construct 'big' ships.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 1, 2004 5:40:34 GMT -5
Thank you for expanding upon your idea... I would like to point out, however, that the civiles ships can include the "uber-transports", though rarely so and these are even more rarely 'new ships' (more often than not being moth-balled mercatorius or militares vessels). Furthermore, civiles ships can include warp drives, though such would have to be 'integrated' at an adeptus mechanicus site and/or franchise, with me personally leading towards a specific location/site. Due to the radical expense of ships and components, however, civiles vessels will tend towards the smaller displacements... You have, however, raised a concept which might be especially intriguing for the 40k universe, though a rather old one elsewhere... (In other words, how do your ships get to where they're supposed to get to!) Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 1, 2004 7:11:29 GMT -5
I'm thinking perhaps we might see Civiles trading fleets 'hitching a lift' with the Mercantilis tithing fleets, as getting between systems on their own would prove difficult.
I think this really sets out sharply the difference between the workings of the Imperium at large and the world of the common man. The citizen goes about his daily life on a completely different scale to the massive operations carried out by the Administratum. The entire industrial product of present-day Earth for a whole year could be overlooked by a simple rounding error in the mathematics of tithe calculation in the 41st millennium...
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 1, 2004 10:18:20 GMT -5
I'm thinking perhaps we might see Civiles trading fleets 'hitching a lift' with the Mercantilis tithing fleets, as getting between systems on their own would prove difficult. That is in part how it works, but not exclusively so. Civilian ships do ply the warp routes and, in many regards, I view them as far more common than Imperial shipping... just smaller. I'm sorry, but not only is it less interesting but I find less consistent with the original goals of the 40k universe and the 'balance of the 'fluff'''... I think this really sets out sharply the difference between the workings of the Imperium at large and the world of the common man. The citizen goes about his daily life on a completely different scale to the massive operations carried out by the Administratum. The entire industrial product of present-day Earth for a whole year could be overlooked by a simple rounding error in the mathematics of tithe calculation in the 41st millennium... Restricting civilian transportation in such obvious and, for me, boorish means is not the way to go. We do that in other ways. Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 2, 2004 1:32:02 GMT -5
Not to say that the Civiles don't have any warp ships, just fewer of them. If you're in a quiet area you'll either be waiting a long time for warp transport, or you'll have to talk to the Mercantilis; whom I think we agree tend to use a lot more 'star' ships?
I don't see the tithing fleets i.e. the Mercantilis, using much in the way of small vessels, as they're looking for efficiency and bulk. The Civiles are more likely to use smaller vessels, both because they deal in smaller quantities of goods and in a wider range, and thus more frequent, smaller shipments. There is also the issue of cost, and that of trust.
Cost - If they're available to buy at all, starships are going to be hella expensive
Trust - The Administratum and the Mechanicus both are less likely to trust a free individual outside of their ranks with their big toys, are they?
So I'm not trying to restrict civilian shipping, just set out what I think should be the way they operate.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 2, 2004 6:15:11 GMT -5
Not to say that the Civiles don't have any warp ships, just fewer of them. If you're in a quiet area you'll either be waiting a long time for warp transport, or you'll have to talk to the Mercantilis; whom I think we agree tend to use a lot more 'star' ships? I'm afraid we don't agree. Based upon the implications in the 'fluff', some of the original 'fluff' from WD139, etc., I work on the principle that the civiles have far, far more ships than either the mercantilis (I shall at this point work on the principle that you're latin is more accurate than my pigeon latin) and militares. They tend to have far lower displacements than vessels of the other Fleets and nominally includes sublight vessels as well as warp vessels (the relative proportion of sublight to superluminal vessels is debateable, though indications would be that the former outweighed the latter). Broadly speaking, the classis civilies is involved in small-scale 'specialist' interstellar trade and/or private activities. It is composed of vessels no smaller than x-displacement tons (I worked on the principle of 1000 displacement tons as the 'smallest' warp-capable vessel or about one-fifth of the smallest vessel carried by the classis mercatilis), but can include vessels much, much larger (moth-balled mercatilis ships). The classis civiles registration tends to be much, much stricter than that of the classis mercatilis. "Temporal charters" are the norm, issued by the adeptus administratum and valid for a given period of real time (not warp time) which, when coupled with the primarcy of calculated warp jumps, create a situation were most 'trade routes' are well-established as a form of 'back-up' for mercatilis activity and/or dominant specialist demands. It is extremely rare for 'temporal charters' to be issued such that crossing of a segmentum border is permissible. Also, vessels of the classis civiles do not operate under the Imperial covenant and, although fealty is required as with Chartist and (obviously) military commanders, weapons are primarily defensive, older designs and overall more readily restricted. The class mercatilis is primarily involved in tithe redistribution and ensuring the correct movement of goods between both need and demand worlds. These are the Chartist ships, normally ex-Fleet, but which can include a limited 'civilian' component (i.e. Hereditary Free). These ships, as bearing under the Imperial covenant, may bear significant arms. The classis militares needs little representation at this point, although obviously they can be involved in 'merchant' activity - more usually that of the class mercatilis - where and when necessary. Both ships of the classis militares and mercatilis tend to be much, much larger than those represented in the classis civiles, as mentioned above. This serves a number of functions, both in terms of the creation of strategic war platforms but also as a symbolic (and not so symbolic) representation of the power that the Imperium wields. I don't see the tithing fleets i.e. the Mercantilis, using much in the way of small vessels, as they're looking for efficiency and bulk. As above, we agree on this one. There is also the issue of cost, and that of trust. We're going to make the typical sci-fi assumption in the ASP that some 'specialist' goods can achieve a market price to bear the cost of interstellar transportation (i.e. not only consumables and/or wages of crew, but also the expense of the vessel in the first place; purchase of a vessel can take centuries of payment for full ownership). We'll make this assumption because we're also carrying on with the assumption of GW with regards to 'demand' worlds (i.e. which require significant imports for survival). Cost - If they're available to buy at all, starships are going to be hella expensive Ships are primarily produced around Anargo Secundus in the Anargo Sector, including both 'Imperial' ( mercatilis and militares) and civiles, though the latter also works through retrofitting of older moth-balled vessels. Superluminal ships can be produced on other worlds but the requirement of transporting the vessel to adeptus mechanicus facilities for warp-drive integration tends to mean that these worlds are rare... Given a sufficient technological and industrial infrastructure, a world can of course produce it's own sublight vessels. These have local registration and, from above, are only really nominally part of the classis civiles just as system defence boats are only nominally part of the classis militares (i.e. operating on the principle of reservist or 'national guard'). Trust - The Administratum and the Mechanicus both are less likely to trust a free individual outside of their ranks with their big toys, are they? 'Control' is maintained through a number of means, not least of which is through two items: control of maintenance of the warp drives, something that can only be done at adeptus mechanicus facilities; control of navigators, restricting the range of operation of vessels before they are related as 'pirates' under order of boarding and capture by both the classis militares and mercatilis). So I'm not trying to restrict civilian shipping, just set out what I think should be the way they operate. Well, I'm working on the above. It's far more dynamic, represents the 'fluff' as well as allowing for a bit more movement in the universe under something other than an Imperial flag (i.e. the 'nominal' Imperial flag). I have yet to see a significant reason to change this interpretation, not least because it is not only the one that I favour but, for the most part, tends to be "'fluff' transparent'. I'll listen, but you'll have to come up with a damned good argument since other models tend to favour a system whereby only the Imperium has access to space. How boring is that!? Oh yes, and sorry if this sounds rather... erm... harsh.  Kage[ |
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Post by CELS on Jun 2, 2004 6:22:47 GMT -5
I hate to interrupt such an interesting discussion, but shouldn't this thread be moved to the Imperium forum? As far as I can see, there's nothing so far that needs to be put in the Factory forum.
Perhaps we should move this thread to the Imperium forum, and then we can use the Factory forum when someone wants to actually design one of the vessels produced by Sabryan Aeronautics?
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 2, 2004 6:52:42 GMT -5
Kage...I don't see any part of that post being any different to what I just said.
Sleep on it and re-read, because something obviously isn't getting through.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 2, 2004 9:47:22 GMT -5
You're right, CELS. I'll move it... and while your describe the purpose of the Factory, it is also the place that we hammer out some of the concepts that matter on 'creation' of ships. More so since these topics are also being discussed in the Imperium already. But moved regardless. Sojourner. Hmmn. I'm going to take the last comment with a pinch of salt. My initial post was somewhat more flamboyant since, as a rule, I don't like being told to re-read posts because I've "missed the point". But with that said... I did read your post and, combined with your previous comments, the implication was clear about such comments as "I'm thinking perhaps we might see Civiles trading fleets 'hitching a lift' with the Mercantilis tithing fleets, as getting between systems on their own would prove difficult" and "or you'll have to talk to the Mercantilis; whom I think we agree tend to use a lot more 'star' ships?". In terms of the relative composition of the two fleets then, yes, I could have misinterpreted what you said. But interpretation of posts can sometimes be a problem... I obviously misread the context and merely thought that it was appropriate to point out how I saw it working and, indeed, how it is currently working in the Imperium. (E.g. as a general rule you don't have sublight merchanters waiting for 'lifts' on interstellar classis mercatilis ships since there's no point, though you can have this situation arising in certain circumstances depending on the world in question... But it is not going to happen in 'out of the way' planets.) Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 2, 2004 10:03:45 GMT -5
In that case, how do we get around the problem?
It is clear that smaller vessels generally/often do not possess warp drives, correct?
If the Mercantilis aren't going to a planet, the possibility of docking and using their warp drive is not there. So you revert to waiting for a Civiles starship to be required in that area. If the mission isn't enough to warrant sending a starship, nobody goes back and forth at all.
Unless of course, warp-capable smaller vessels are used for this purpose. Which now I think about it, would be most likely.
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