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Post by Minister on Jun 1, 2004 8:19:38 GMT -5
I'm ignoring the Tau classification system, as they are filthy Xenos scum and beneath the concideration of a person of my standing. ;D
As far as I'm concerned, a ship is a vessel capable of independant warp travel, and includes anything from Corvete up on that list.
Warp Scouts wise, I'm remembering the units mentioned in, I think, Ghostmaker, and mention of "smaller vessels" in the BFG BBB. It makes sense in my mind that a number of small ships would be available for scouting out areas and carrying information from one system to another.
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Post by CELS on Jun 1, 2004 8:31:35 GMT -5
Yeah, of course. I'm just curious about the name 'Warp scout'. It doesn't really sound like a type of ship, like 'clipper' or 'barge'. At this point, I'm trying to gather up all the different ship types that are mentioned by GW. If all GW mentions are Barges and small cutters and shuttles, we'll fill out the rest ourselves I agree that the smallest warp-capable ships would be Corvette-size, but I'm not sure if Kage agree with this. I seem to recall that he designed the smallest warp-capable ship possible. Btw, would you not call a vessel without warp drive a ship? Such as a system freighter or a capital ship without warp drive? What would you call them then? Boats?
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Post by Minister on Jun 1, 2004 9:19:02 GMT -5
Point on that. Have Star Ships as those capable of interstellar travel, and Space Ships or System Ships as those without warp drives of the same order of magnitude. Smaller things are either Attack Craft or Shuttles, for the most part.
Possibly sling warp Ssouts in along with the corvetes, but I'm not sure.
I'd also like to point out that there may well be a diference between the smallest ship which can be made with warp drive and the smallest the Navy opperates. Any ship of the fleet will require limited defensive weapons and good enough drives to keep up with the battleships at the minimum, in addition to whatever systems it needs for its designated role.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 1, 2004 10:06:44 GMT -5
I agree that the smallest warp-capable ships would be Corvette-size, but I'm not sure if Kage agree with this. I seem to recall that he designed the smallest warp-capable ship possible. Depends on how big a corvette supposedly is. I maintain that 'Imperial ships' are big for more than just the 'superficial' approach that they need to be. We're not just talking about the standard 'entropic' image of the 'fluff', but also the image that the Imperium is trying to maintain! Linear distances are not something when designing ships that I tend to deal with, though the original one that I designed (posted in Factory) was perhaps a tad on the small size at ~100m. Since this is a personal interpretation I'm more than open to suggestions, but the idea of all ships being kilometers long is just... pointless, to me. Too involved in the superficial imagery at the expense of the parallel concepts and the complete 'balance' of the 'fluff'... Kage
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Post by Lordof on Jun 2, 2004 2:55:15 GMT -5
I agree with Kages idea that the smallest Warp Capable craft would be no smaller really than about 100m long
There would be further exceptions but these would be specially built craft desinged for Elite Inquisitorial Strike teams/ Assassins etc.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 2, 2004 6:17:32 GMT -5
Well, we'll have to see what the others say on this... in fact I'm going to open another thread on this in Factory... We'll let the topic get back, well, OnT here though... Kage
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Rich
Scribe
Posts: 13
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Post by Rich on Jun 2, 2004 23:33:28 GMT -5
A varity of small ships (I think corvettes among them and certainly pinnacles) are mentioned in the 'attack craft' entry in the BFG rulebook, and therefore I assume that all such ships are roughly the same displacement and are non warp-capable.
In one of the earlier GG novels, there is mention of a warp scout ship, which appears to be some kind of oversized fighter craft (I can't for the life of me remember what the class was though).
As for destroyers vs frigates, I was under the impression that conventionally they are approximately the same size but have different roles (like cruisers and battlecruisers?) - I realise that BFG takes liberties with this kind of thing though.
I think the safest way to classify merchant ships is by what they are designed to carry and how much of it. A promethium transport will be different from a grain transport, which will in turn be different from an ore transport. I would expect ships that transport certain items to be larger than others (I would imagine ships designed to carry foodstuffs would be smaller) and it might be more useful to classify them by their role rather than their tonnage.
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Post by CELS on Jun 3, 2004 0:21:29 GMT -5
A varity of small ships (I think corvettes among them and certainly pinnacles) are mentioned in the 'attack craft' entry in the BFG rulebook, and therefore I assume that all such ships are roughly the same displacement and are non warp-capable. "Brigs, dories, pinnaces, couriers and lighters" in addition to the interceptors, bombers and assault boats. No mention of corvettes. But I agree that these are all non warp-capable, as with the cutters. If you can't remember the class, can you at least remember what novel? Hmmm, I don't think its just a matter of different roles, but I can't really say for sure, since I can't back it up with anything. Except that the destroyer models are smaller I disagree. The size of a ship carrying foodstuffs depends on its destination (and origin). Some hiveworlds import fantastic amounts of food, and some agri-worlds export fantastic amounts of food. I agree that ships carrying foodstuffs might be smaller on average, but I don't think we should classify ships by role only.
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 3, 2004 2:26:43 GMT -5
I think this pretty much implies that GW intended the size difference to carry into the fluff...
It's approximately similar to the current variation in size between Frigates and Destroyers in modern navies; Destroyers are, at the moment, slightly smaller, but each are easily capable of taking on the other in a straight fight. Furthermore, Destroyers can be larger or smaller than Frigates in the same service depending on their role, rather than their tonnage.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 3, 2004 2:35:01 GMT -5
Which raises the problem of 'system defence boats', i.e. those sublight vessels which will have concomittantly more volume to lay over to weapons. As such they will, cubic metre for cubic metre, but more 'effective' in simple combat than a warp-capable vessel... Or they should be, depending on role, etc. Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 3, 2004 2:43:54 GMT -5
If we want to avoid such a discrepancy we can easily fudge that. If we say that the mechanism of a warp drive is required to feed such weaponry as lances and so on, we therefore reduce the combat potential of non-warp vessels as they have to make do with carrying a smaller 'sublight reactor'
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Post by CELS on Jun 3, 2004 2:59:29 GMT -5
Do system ships / boats have as advanced weaponry as Imperial Navy ships? As advanced sensors and targetting cogitators? Do they have as well-trained and disciplined crew? I would say no.
Besides, I consider capital system ships extremely rare, to say the least. From the BFG game, I'm led to believe that escort size system ships are only slightly inferior to Imperial Navy escorts.
I agree that system ships could be more effective in combat 'per cubic metre' though, but crew and tech level are important factors.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 3, 2004 3:09:12 GMT -5
I agree with CELS, mainly because it's how I see it... Not only do you have the Imperium maintaining the 'cutting edge' on military technology but the size of the ships again comes into it: Quite simply the Imperium has more 'money' to throw into the pot and their ships reflect this. They're mobile platforms and symbols of the incredible size and power of the Imperium, as much as anything else. I remember a piece of 'colour 'fluff'' which stated that the arrival of an Imperial ship in orbit was enough to get some rebel worlds to capitulate... It's a powerful image. Thus system defence boats will generally be smaller than the largest ships that the Imperium could produce as well as have lower-tech power plants (thus proportionately more volume is taken up in generating the same levels of power output), reduced efficiency engines (depending on how we represent that; it's far too easy to say "well it says here..." and ignore how to model things), and so on. It definitely beats the cludged nightmare of adding in 'warp power plants' or some such, as Sojourner goes for. However, as a back up it's a good idea, or at least a way of enhancing the odds in favour of 'warp vessels'. For me the warp drive is basically a device and a whole series of 'capacitors'. If those capacitors are charged - your 'warp drive' is charged - then you've got a whole lot of additional energy which you can use to power armaments, emergency reserves, etc. Again, though, it depends on the balance between 'batteries' and 'power plants'. That level of resolution is not permissible, for the most part, in the wargame. (Of course, it can be cludged from ROF, I would imagine...) So I'll modify the original statement. A 100,000 m 3 sub-light military ship would, or should, be able to take on superluminal vessel of superior size, though the relative sizes of said vessels depends on the specific nature of components on the two ships, etc. Though, as CELS says, I really don't see a system defence fleet comprised of the 'larger' vessels. Of course, since we don't have anything to work off at the moment other than broad categories with no direct correlation to size other than glitchy linear distance... Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 3, 2004 3:09:20 GMT -5
What about Defence Monitors, then? Generally crewed by Naval personnel, covered in guns, but with puny engines. They outshoot everything of similar size in the Fleet in BFG, though, so I guess that speaks for itself.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 3, 2004 3:16:41 GMT -5
Yep, that's another thing... you reduce the volume of the drive systems and, more than likely, the reaction mass (again it depends on how this is represented) and you can fit more guns in their for your bang... Still a SDB although I just use that as a roll over from Traveller. Apologies for that but since I don't own BFG or any other subsequent information, it's pretty hard to get into the terminology used there... more so especially because of some of the problems. But, yes, Defence Monitors (a sub-class for the more generic classification of SDB, perhaps) should exist as well... Indeed, since you mentioned them I'm guessing that they do! (In fact, I think that I've even heard of them!) Kage
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