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Post by CELS on Feb 13, 2004 18:46:33 GMT -5
I feel it's high time we started a discussion concerning interstellar trade (or restarted.... with several thousand posts over the past six months, I can't be too sure)
Some of you might remember me starting a discussion about Navigators, warp drives and interstellar trade on Portent, because I was not entirely confident that we had the right idea about such things as the merchant fleet.
As the Portent fluffers pointed out, Navigators are a very limited resource of high demand. Obviously, not all trading companies will have access to them.
Second, it is conceivable that warp drives are very, very, very expensive. This too restricts the level of interstellar trade.
Right now, the common idea seems to be that the Merchant fleet in Anargo is many times as big as the military fleet, and that is something I'm not entirely comfortable with at the moment.
Another point of interest, is that GW states that the Tau were unable to enter the warp because they didn't have psykers. I think we might have been over this before, but this obviously implies that non-navigated warp jumps (aka calculated jumps) are impossible.
If we go with the idea of calculated jumps, we should try to come up with an explanation that covers up GWs possible inconsistensies.
Thoughts?
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Post by zholud on Feb 14, 2004 6:20:05 GMT -5
I feel it's high time we started a discussion concerning interstellar trade (or restarted.... with several thousand posts over the past six months, I can't be too sure) There are tangent threads but no on trade specifically. Nice topic, those are ones I like the most ;D As the Portent fluffers pointed out, Navigators are a very limited resource of high demand. Obviously, not all trading companies will have access to them. It is hard to say the actual amount of hem. From one hand they are declared rare, while for example in Bleeding Chalice novel they are used just to watch warp in stationary patrolling ships!  Right now, the common idea seems to be that the Merchant fleet in Anargo is many times as big as the military fleet, and that is something I'm not entirely comfortable with at the moment. Roughly 10 or even 30 times as large, both in number of inter-system ships and tonnage. Another point of interest, is that GW states that the Tau were unable to enter the warp because they didn't have psykers. Common mistake by GW. Navigators are lacking any psyker abilities. In D&D terms they are priests, not mages, so they can achieve similar results as the latter, but with different means. The Tau fleet simply lacks navigator gene equivalent  I think we might have been over this before, but this obviously implies that non-navigated warp jumps (aka calculated jumps) are impossible. They are possible but much slower and less safe. Tau may use computers to somehow probability calculate them, but Imperium is forbidden to use Stone men, thus imperial calculated jumps are even more dangerous. If we go with the idea of calculated jumps, we should try to come up with an explanation that covers up GWs possible inconsistensies. We have calculated jumps. With systems just a light year away it is not to hard to jump for a week to it… but it would took only minutes with Navigator…  |
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Post by Minister on Feb 14, 2004 9:40:32 GMT -5
1. Navigators are psykers, they're just a diferent... type? breed? Anyway, they're a specialised psyker.
Calculated jumps are possible, both for Imperial ships and the Tau.
I'm also going to post this, taken from a source which is DEFINATLEY NOT THE FLUFFBIBILE, for which I am NOT eternaly greatful to zholud for because he did NOT send it to me.
"+++Navigating in the Warp+++
It is possible for a ship to make short warp jumps of about four to five light years with a certain degree of accuracy. However, over longer distances it is necessary to steer through warp space itself. The warp is like an ocean, with currents, storms and tides that must be used or avoided. For the Imperium, only the mutated Navigators are able to see the shifting eddies of the warp and direct a ship between them, thus steering the ship towards its ultimate destination.
Even the Navigators need a point of reference, and this is provided by the immensely powerful psychic beacon known as the Astronomican. Guided by the minds of ten thousand specially-trained human psykers on Terra, the Astronomican pulses outwards 70,000 light years to the furthest reaches of the galaxy. A Navigator can sense the beam of the Astronomican and use it to plot his course. Weaker, shorter-ranged astropathic ducts and beacons are also used to mark out shipping lanes and to aid navigation through treacherous areas of the warp."
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Post by zholud on Feb 14, 2004 10:24:52 GMT -5
1. Navigators are psykers, they're just a diferent... type? breed? Anyway, they're a specialised psyker. Navigators are mutants of a very special kind, and although their appearance can vary a great deal they always have the power to navigate through warp space. Although this is a psychic ability, [glow=red,2,300]navigators never have other psychic powers[/glow] Also: No normal man can look upon the Warp for an extended period of time and remain sane. Even to contemplate its structure upon navigational instruments can be injurious to spiritual and mental health.
It would appear that the mutation of Navigator’s makes them immune to these psychic perils. Moreover while normal souls, even shielded ones, are visible to daemons within the Immaterium, it seems that they cannot perceive Navigators- at least not with their psychic senses. So they are blanks... |
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Post by Minister on Feb 14, 2004 13:37:36 GMT -5
"navigators never have other psychic powers "
I beg to differ. Firstly, there are the various references to their precognuitive abilities (proof reference: Shadow Point) and wierd stare (various, including Eye of Terror). An Exterminatus (six?) also makes reference to their powers. However, these tend to be centered on the perception of the warp and the projection of its power, rather than the more traditional abilities like telepathy and pyrokenisis.
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Post by zholud on Feb 14, 2004 16:20:11 GMT -5
"navigators never have other psychic powers " I beg to differ. Firstly, there are the various references to their precognuitive abilities (proof reference: Shadow Point) and wierd stare (various, including Eye of Terror). Just as I said: they have powers similar to those of psykers if you judge the ends, but they use totally different means. As an example Tyranids use analogues to autoguns and even plasma, but they are ‘biological’, not ‘mechanical’ (both words are used in very restricted way here). They actually see the future in the warp, but they are not emitters like psykers. |
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Post by Minister on Feb 15, 2004 7:04:17 GMT -5
They are the manipulation of warp energy in real space using the power of the mind. I thought that that was the definition of psychic powers?  |
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Post by zholud on Feb 15, 2004 7:18:16 GMT -5
They are the manipulation of warp energy in real space using the power of the mind. I thought that that was the definition of psychic powers? For me they don’t affect warp. They look at it and see myriad of micro-currents and catch them with warp-sail which I suppose (and Kage independently came to the same idea IIRC) is that Gellar field (used as sail to which they catch current/wind). You shouldn’t call nice sailor the master of wind, shoul you? |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 15, 2004 10:29:31 GMT -5
I feel it's high time we started a discussion concerning interstellar trade (or restarted.... with several thousand posts over the past six months, I can't be too sure) Fair enough... and this is my second reply to this thread since IE did the funky "Error" thing the last time and I lost a substantial chunk of text. Grrr... Some of you might remember me starting a discussion about Navigators, warp drives and interstellar trade on Portent, because I was not entirely confident that we had the right idea about such things as the merchant fleet. I seem to recall that the problem was mostly hashed out, although there was some imposition on my behalf. As the Portent fluffers pointed out, Navigators are a very limited resource of high demand. Obviously, not all trading companies will have access to them. I feel that this is a self-evident truth, yes. Second, it is conceivable that warp drives are very, very, very expensive. This too restricts the level of interstellar trade. The posted quick example of the Soleus in the Factory shows that even the smallest of ships are horrendously expensive. That example also doesn't take into account the standard order of magnitude increase resulting from the fact that the warp drive comes from a higher 'TL' (10) than is commonly available in the Imperium (9). So yes, warp drives are expensive but that doesn't mean that they're not affordable. Just depends on what you can afford... But definitely, $600-700,000,000 is not to be sniffed at... Right now, the common idea seems to be that the Merchant fleet in Anargo is many times as big as the military fleet, and that is something I'm not entirely comfortable with at the moment. Not in my mind. I see the Merchant Fleet as big, yes, but more in lines with the Military Fleet. The Civil Fleet is a different matter altogether, being composed of larger numbers of ships but much, much smaller ship sizes... Another point of interest, is that GW states that the Tau were unable to enter the warp because they didn't have psykers. I think we might have been over this before, but this obviously implies that non-navigated warp jumps (aka calculated jumps) are impossible. No. This bit of 'fluff' will not be incorporated since it is not only ludicrous in my conception. Remember that human warp travel took place before they had developed psykers... Again, no. This is just a case of GW saying something which is blatantly stupid to try and explain something that they don't quite have the imagination to figure out. At least seemingly so since I've never seen a decent interpretation of them. If we go with the idea of calculated jumps, we should try to come up with an explanation that covers up GWs possible inconsistensies. It really isn't necessary. One quick comment does not invalidate the balance of the 'fluff', the sheer weight of the older material and, indeed, as shown above it can be invalidated with only superficial consideration. The rarity of Navigators translates to one point: the fact that non-Merchant/Military travel is going to be horrendously slow and subscribe primarily to the 'stable warp pathways', of which they are going to have to pay substantial 'tithes' to pay for the temporary charters... Significant 'trade companies' (the meaning of 'guild' that I obviously incorrectly applied in the past) might be able to afford multiple ships or even 'band together' to afford the temporary (or longer) contracted service of a Navigator... thus the concept of warp convoys. On Navigators... I mimic their abilities with psionics, but that doesn't mean that they are psykers. So in this I would mirror the argument that while they are no psykers, they do in some way use a psyker ability which can in some shallow way be mimicked by psykers... Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 16, 2004 14:21:49 GMT -5
Three points:
1) Is it possible to make a calculated jump into deep space?
2) Is it possible to jump from deep space?
3) How long does it take to 'recharge' a warp drive?
I'm thinking this because I need some clever answers to make me believe that Navigators are required at all...
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Post by zholud on Feb 16, 2004 16:10:46 GMT -5
Three points: 1) Is it possible to make a calculated jump into deep space? yes. 2) Is it possible to jump from deep space? yes. 3) How long does it take to 'recharge' a warp drive? No one knows. I'm thinking this because I need some clever answers to make me believe that Navigators are required at all... They just allow travels which last months, not millennia as in the latter case. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 16, 2004 19:22:17 GMT -5
Only three!?  Is it possible to make a calculated jump into deep space? There seems no reason in the 'fluff' why this could not be achieved. Indeed, for me it is in some ways easier to do this outside of a significant gravity well. Is it possible to jump from deep space? By implication, yes. How long does it take to 'recharge' a warp drive? Ditto with zholud. Depends on what you take to be the energy required to move a given volume/mass through the 'jump point'. Using the GURPS values comes up with narratively disappointingly short times... I'm thinking this because I need some clever answers to make me believe that Navigators are required at all... I would suggest that the 'fluff' indicates that you're approaching this from the wrong direction. It is quite clear that Navigators are not required. Humans expanded quite clearly in the Golden Age before they were around... I have alwayus felt that the question is what Navigators actually do? What advantages do they offer which makes them significant to the Imperium. And in that question is a matter of scale, too. What do they do to the Imperium, but what can they do to the local level? A part of the direction of the discussion is typified by the "every system is a castle" or "dynamic Imperium" approahces. If you advocate that only the Imperium (as in the official organisations) are responsible for all transport and trade in the Imperium, then you're going to run into problems. I as project leader think that is untenable and uninteresting, yet still a valid point. Thus compromise is possible... And this is where the "limited civil trade" comes into play as compromise, for me... Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 17, 2004 9:05:18 GMT -5
Ah yes, but for me these amount to the same thing in this case...
What I'm saying is; why use a navigator when you can make a rapid series of calculated jumps through deep space, continually checking your position and possibly resulting in less course deviation than if 'Navigated'?
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 17, 2004 10:23:30 GMT -5
Transit time is increased by the requirement of waiting for favourable precipitation conditions: waiting for the tide, as it were. I would imagine, anyway. (Remember the 'fluff' on the warp drive taking a 'snapshot' of the warp for a given condition and then calculating the most favourite point/time to enter the warp.) That would be the most obvious answer, for me. Kage |
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Post by zholud on Feb 17, 2004 13:43:47 GMT -5
What I'm saying is; why use a navigator when you can make a rapid series of calculated jumps through deep space, continually checking your position and possibly resulting in less course deviation than if 'Navigated'? OK, here is how I describe this. Ship w/o navigator is ship with sails (sic!) but no-one to operate them and oars. With oars you spend a lot of energy and your speed is very low. If you get a breeze of worse, storming wind with your sails on you could in best case move off course and in worse your ship is broken apart. The navigator is sole being able to operate sails and thus actually use currents, unlike calculated jumps which IMHO use kinetic energy from real world acceleration. They are just divers which could not compete with ships… am I clear, because one day it may become more than my thoughts? |
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