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Post by CELS on Dec 22, 2004 10:41:12 GMT -5
I hate to jump in like this, since I was going to let you and Zholud slug it out, but... considering the possibility that it might be expensive to ship material around in the Imperium, won't it be ineffective to have minerals moved from one world to another, where it is processed before possibly even being moved to a third world, before it actually goes to the fourth world which needs the finished product? Then again, the whole structure of the Imperium sort of falls on its butt if the above is not the case, since mining worlds and agriworlds should always ship off materials and not finished products What was my point again?
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Post by Dazo on Dec 22, 2004 10:47:15 GMT -5
Food is a little different i'd say, as harvesting it and processing it sort of go hand in hand, but your right about mining worlds. This is why I ask again what about the other worlds in a planetary system, surely it would be better to perhaps use them. So you have a small mining world, but in order to maximise you processing speed you occupy another world in the system and turn it into an industrial world, then to save space you ship the finished goods into the outer system to a warehouse world, then all people have to do is visit the warehose worlds to pick up their stuff, and its all prepacked and ready for use.
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Post by CELS on Dec 22, 2004 11:09:37 GMT -5
The reason they don't just make small industrial worlds or agriworlds to compliment each starsystem, is that it's damned expensive to colonise a planet that isn't originally habitable. Recycling water, creating an artificial atmosphere (inside or outside), building grav plates, growing food artificially in damp caves... all that is a hell of a lot more expensive than just finding a world that is almost good to go. So it would seem that the arrangement of taking ores from system A to system B for processing is cheaper than colonising a dead rock in system A and making it an industrial world.
As for processing food.... when agri-worlds have a population of less than a million people, you really don't have the manpower to turn all that wheat into bread So I'd say harvesting and processing it doesn't go hand in hand a lot of the time.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 22, 2004 11:19:21 GMT -5
Your assuming these dead rocks are dead, if they have water well thats half the problem solved right there, and it would reduce the number of warp capable ships needed, as you would only need interplanetary ships.
Other wise I expect to see warp capable ships increase a thousand fold in number and every world that can churning out starships, not just a select few. One ship really can't carry enough you would need vast convoys of warp ships moving non stop system to system, is that really going to be cheaper.
Colonising a world should really be a one off investment, but by not doing that you are requireing a constant and escalating investment.
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 22, 2004 11:31:41 GMT -5
Mass transit is cheap for the Imperium. As they by default own everything they can demand whatever they like without having to pay for it, so transport costs aren't an issue. Factor in the other possibility that many agri- and mining worlds aren't suitable for heavy industry and you necessitate transport of raw materials on a large scale.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 22, 2004 11:36:24 GMT -5
Yes true, but transport to where, out of the system or another world in the system. Thsi comes right back to warp drives doesn't it, how many are there, has fast can they be produced, how many ships exist that are capable of it, can they match in terms of capacity the the actuall output of the imperium or is there going to be a short fall.
I give up
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 22, 2004 18:44:28 GMT -5
It is better to allow private traders to transfer ore to highest bidder, who in the end does these guns or pies. Am I clearer now? Your clearer, but it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Why let private traders determine the most suitable candidate when they have the infrastructure in place - for the most part - to determine the best candidate themselves. That is, after all, part of the point behind the tithe. However, we know that in line with official fluff they have positive tithe levels. Thus they have to pay. Ah, so because GW makes a pig ear of something we have to sustain it?
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Post by Zholud on Dec 23, 2004 5:00:08 GMT -5
it might be expensive to ship material around in the Imperium, won't it be ineffective to have minerals moved from one world to another, where it is processed before possibly even being moved to a third world, before it actually goes to the fourth world which needs the finished product? It’s the problem of self-sustaining system. You build smelter, use local ore and then exhaust it. But your smelter’s capacities are still there, thus you buy ore from more distant sources, because it is even more expensive to move the plant. Similar situation was in the USSR for sure and possibly in other countries as well. There was a mountain ‘Magnitka’ (magnetic = due to ferrous ore deposits). Currently there is no mountain at all (!) and the smelter, that was built near it now imports ore… Your assuming these dead rocks are dead, if they have water well thats half the problem solved right there. There is water on the Moon but you’re still here. Moreover, most projects plan to colonise far away Mars and not our satellite. There could not enough resources. Colonising a world should really be a one off investment, but by not doing that you are requireing a constant and escalating investment. The problem is that you may lack funds for one-time investments… not to mention that they are not really one-time, especially if a planet lacks some resources, thus is not self-sustainable… Mass transit is cheap for the Imperium. As they by default own everything they can demand whatever they like without having to pay for it, so transport costs aren't an issue. Costs are always the issue. You have to built, fuel, operate, maintain ships. You spend funds for that. Thus is can be cheap or expensive, depending on other factors, but it always matters. Your clearer, but it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Why let private traders determine the most suitable candidate when they have the infrastructure in place - for the most part - to determine the best candidate themselves. That is, after all, part of the point behind the tithe. Difference is as follows: Variant 1, Imperium controls all – Imperium gets the right for 1mn tons of ore, has to join it to its right to get ship to the planet to transport the ore, find the user for this ore, supply him and get his output in return. Awful headache even for billion-strong Administratum. Variant 2, Imperium wants final products – Imperium gets the rights for 1mn tons of ore, sells it to the highest/best by other parameters bidder. The bidder has to find the ship to transport the ore, etc. Pays with final product – ship, lasgun, etc. Less headache for Administratum. Ah, so because GW makes a pig ear of something we have to sustain it? No, I just say I don’t see the need to go too heretical… after all we may end-up in StarWars universe just because we dn’t like parts of the fluff. There is a thin line of course.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 23, 2004 5:20:55 GMT -5
Imperial Industrial worlds do what the imperium tell them to, their tithe would be in finished goods. Imperial mining worlds do what the imperium tells them to, their tithes would be in ore. They do not get to pick and choose how much they give nor do they set prices. The imperium mines the ore, the imperium then refines the ore and then the imperium builds weapons, the main point is it doesnt matter which world has the resource needed, the point is it is the imperium which is doing all of this. Only Hive worlds and Civilised worlds might differ from this.
Example, you need something to eat, so you make it in the kitchen, the thing is the ingreidients are in the fridge but you need them on the cooker, but you also want to eat it in the living room. Do you, negotiate with the fridge for 2 eggs and a slice of bacon, then get a third party to transport them to the cooker, where you then offer them in trade for something else, the finished meal is then moved via yet another third party to the living room. If you do then your very strange, but no you would do all that yourself, it might require a little effort on your part but you'll do it because your hungry and because its just what has to be done, its the cheapest way at least.
Well you can hardly blame me for that, any way the moon is the proposed launch pad for the mars mission because it has water deposits that can be turned into fuel
The imperium is never likely to lack funds for a one of payment, however the increased burden placed on its limited naval bases and advanced starports, due to wear and tear of its warp capable ships would be a hinderance
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Post by Zholud on Dec 23, 2004 10:22:21 GMT -5
Imperial Industrial worlds do what the imperium tell them to, their tithe would be in finished goods. Imperial mining worlds do what the imperium tells them to, their tithes would be in ore. finished goods are one ready for consumption. Like bread, lasgun or ship. Unlike ore or grain. If Imperium tells mining world to pay tithe in doughnuts, how could it pay? They do not get to pick and choose how much they give nor do they set prices. I never said otherwise. The imperium mines the ore, the imperium then refines the ore and then the imperium builds weapons, Not the Imperium but people. Example, you need something to eat, so you make it in the kitchen, the thing is the ingreidients are in the fridge but you need them on the cooker, but you also want to eat it in the living room. Do you, negotiate with the fridge for 2 eggs and a slice of bacon, then get a third party to transport them to the cooker, where you then offer them in trade for something else I negotiate with trader who in turn negotiated with farmer, who forced hen to pay tithe in eggs… Well you can hardly blame me for that, any way the moon is the proposed launch pad for the mars mission because it has water deposits that can be turned into fuel But still – it is base for the lunch of Mars colonisation, not for moon’s colonisation… The imperium is never likely to lack funds for a one of payment, But does it need to make it? Or it prefers another battleship? Funds still limited.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 23, 2004 10:42:47 GMT -5
Splitting the hair mighty fine there aren't you zholud And if you own the farm and the chickens, and the little pigs then... Not just mars, but exploration of the whole system, meaning it probably would make more sense to develop it as a colony, and not just for space missions, are you being deliberatly contrary my friend, you know all this as well as I The imperium would get the battleship whatever happened as well you know, behave yourself, your just messing with me now aren't you
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 23, 2004 10:56:57 GMT -5
I would point out at this juncture that we may be sinking into irrelevance. The Imperium doesn't tithe war material directly, equipment is the role of the PDF of the various Imperial domains. Except in cases where a primitive world is providing auxiliaries and the Munitorum chooses to upgrade their equipment, their gear will be provided by their homeworld before shipment. As such, it will either manufacture the stuff itself, which will probably not be too challenging given that lasguns are a relatively small expenditure of raw material. The expenditure in equipping a military force is in labour, expertise and infrastructure, not the raw materials themselves. If the world has the technological base to produce Guard equipment, it will do so with local materials.
As an example, consider modern-day Earth. How much steel and aluminium does the planet produce, how much is it capable of producing, and how much as a percentage goes into manufacturing guns and tanks? Not a lot. Now consider that compared to the mining worlds of the Imperium, Earth is probably not particularly iron-rich. Therefore we can see that local production isn't too much of a problem.
In the case that a world doesn't have the technological base to produce weaponry of a standard suitable for the guard, this may well fall to the munitorum. However, I would hypothesise that instead of buying it up itself, the Munitorum will instead nag the homeworld to buy or make them itself before the regiment departs. In the case where the world genuinely cannot supply its regiments for galactic service, the Munitorum will buy the equipment from a forgeworld using its reserve 'bank balance' provided by tithing from other worlds.
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Post by Zholud on Dec 24, 2004 3:13:42 GMT -5
And if you own the farm and the chickens, and the little pigs then... Then it does not look like you ever need to question how mining world is tithed. For having everything in your yard means you have not mining but industrial world and your output is tanks/monorails/whatsoever and not ore. The imperium would get the battleship whatever happened as well you know, behave yourself, your just messing with me now aren't you The main point it that the Imperium in all its might is yet unable to produce enough battleships to overwhelm all its opponents by cheer mass. Thus they are limited in battleship production if this has not happened. Limits are usually set by binding resources, be it warp drives, available labour force or funds. The fact that the Imperium is enormously large does not mean it has a lot of resources and no spending. Quite the opposite. It taxes people much because its expenditures are high. Maybe partially due to inefficiency but this is an entirely different question.
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 24, 2004 5:08:52 GMT -5
It seems that the limitation in ship production is primarily due to lack of expertise. Only members of the Admech are allowed to do the important construction jobs on warships i.e. heavy weaponry, warp drives, Navigator's chamber, and there aren't many of them. It seems to take them a long time; how much this would be improved by applying more manpower is unclear but it would certainly help if there were more construction teams i.e. more skilled artisans, possibly outside the Admech.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 24, 2004 5:29:17 GMT -5
so again we come to the question of warp drives, i'm sure anargo cold have the capacity to be rolling out warships one a day, much like america was during the second world war, but in practical terms they are being held up by warp drive construction, which would have to be split between equiping war ships and support ships such as transporters.
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