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Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 2:18:33 GMT -5
Gotta love hard scientists... Thank you, ErnestBorgnine. I've been trying to figure out a means of reducing the population of the hiveworld significantly. Indeed, as can be seen here and elsehwere, I also have a problem with them regardless of their canonical status... I love science too. ErnestBorgnine is arguing against a completely different design and system. I agree with his logic and maths, but it doesn't actually match in any way to the scenario I have proposed. CELS and dazo have already noticed that he talking about something completely different. So, perhaps a lovely reduction of population down the B level? I changed that ages ago when you first asked me to I didn't change it because of a muck up on my end, I changed it because you didn't like it Of course the atmosphere of Invictonburg is nasty so you would need atmopheric processors as well, it would be a case of a direct exchange with the outside atmosphere which is what they do today, and they would need to be rather large i'm thinking I was thinking heat exchanger and sealed, so the out side air doesn't contaminate the interior. Basically a long tube, like a lift shaft, filled with metal fins acting as heat sinks to refrigeration units(this is all part of the hydroponics modules). Outside air is forced up the shaft removing the heat from the sinks. Far more efficiency than Canary Wharf system.
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Post by zholud on Aug 7, 2004 8:57:08 GMT -5
Oh, I’m back and decided to drop my 2 cents in overall discussion, going from the very start of the thread and ending at the present end of it. I write as I read, so there can be several (or many) things that had been already said here, so I apologise. - Self-sufficient Hiveworld – I don’t fully buy it, mainly because all fluff has it otherwise. Of course we can have the one and only hive that is self-sufficient…after all there were 2 mn worlds prior to Horus Heresy, and everything, or at least a lot is possible on such a large sample.
- this leads to idea – Philip, do you wonthive or Hiveworld? there is a possibility to have a hive is a manner to describe it, as a base of Hiveworld, which later overgrow it, or a hive on civilised planet, more close to megapolices than to all-enclosing Hiveworld.
- bio-spheres in general – some bastardised versions of them are in action in Necromunda for example – there are explicit mentions on food recycled up to 23 IIRC times before it comes to the Bottom… and synth-rations, mentioned elsewhere. There were mentions of hydroponics. With unlimited energy you truly can have a working biosphere, but what is the such a great power source and why it isn’t used elsewhere in the Imperium. Moreover, it can be economically feasible to product equipment using this energy and exchange it for food. After all we want to take something from the Hiveworld, it does not exist for itself – thus the system is not closed, but open.
- On upper limit for population – I’d say that while trillions are possible, I’d prefer to have this number much lower, closer to other known Hiveworlds, both in official background and our ASP stuff. this means up to 300 billion people, but I suggest even less – about a hundred… recall one of the original ASP ideas – we want average sector, with more or less representative average worlds…
- On labour migration – I envision Hiveworlds as hubs for humans, which serve two main goals – exploitation of positive externalities (see below) and ‘stocks’ of human for IG, colonisation, whatsoever. The positive externalities means that you main output has by-product, that can be used by another ‘outputter’. Usual example is one man with tree and another with bees – both are interested in bees ‘working’ with trees, while they don’t get profit from another one output – be it fruits or honey. So the main purpose of the hives is usage of those spill-overs, so main output is not ‘psychotic gangs’ but production.
- Cannibalism – cannot truly support man as the main source or food – both acid poisoning from meat diet and the very fact that you consume your body-weight equivalent of food in one month and you usually grew up for years…
- Exports – I think that Hiveworld ought to supply small-scale stuff, like toasters, lasguns, lead solders ;D … look what China exports – find out what is labour-intensive and export it.
- Totally Off-Topic – on artwork: Philip, whether we will be able to see some of your stuff in Inferno! and the like with stuff like this hive, i.e. schematics, plans, etc? I have some idea for you if interested… Should I PM you or there is too much other work to do?
- ErnestBorgnine – I applaud your calculations. I’ve made several similar estimations a long time ago, and can inform you that trillion population on current Earth surface (i.e. no ocean cities) with density as high as in Mexico-city is possible… I can get those calculations here if needed.
- Mining – just as a side note, there is a concept in Frank Herbert Direct Descent novel – the Earth mined for creation of new space ships and their fuel for so long (millennia) that the planet lacks core and is a shell with gravity-generating plant inside…
- Comparisons with sky scrappers – they are a bit, or more than a bit off, because most of the building surface is open for temperature exchange, ventilation, etc. moreover bio-spheres need a lot of high-tuning, allowing for shocks like fires (burns out oxygen, adds CO2) or sudden migration of population, their growth and drops, plagues, etc. and recall, ill-famous twin-towers had a possibility on plane-ram in their construction, they fell due to overheating of metal bars that are the skeleton for a building…
uh, if all my posts take that much time, it will be next year when I finish Meksum and Neu Povolzh…
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Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 9:42:52 GMT -5
Hi zholud Kage2020 has a up to date version of the STCS:CS, or I can send you it if you like? PM me. - Self-sufficient Hiveworld
They are self-sufficient if a closed system. As they are an active part of the Imperium this is not the case. If the STCS:CS went into full lock down it could survive indefinitely just 'ticking over', but it wouldn't be supplying anything export wise and ignoring any problems outside their ability to fix.
- this leads to idea
There are three types of STCS:CS and fulfil different functions.
- bio-spheres in general
40K alludes to many things, I don't think what I am proposing it out of place. It's just no one has thought about it in this detail, and it certainly would appear as a focal point of a novel.
- On upper limit for population
Most 40K literature has 'Hive' worlds with very few 'Hives' on them. So the population will be very low. Using my system Necromunda is over populated and much higher tech building wise then one of the STCS:CS. It has a very high spire. If I used technology as implied by Necromunda the STCS:CS would be fantastically huge, far higher than I'm imagining.
- On labour migration
About the size of it.
- Cannibalism
Only as part of the nightmare of a failing hive gone mad.
- Exports
Yep, the Hive 'in house' industry is all small stuff, laz-gun etc.
- Totally Off-Topic
The Hive it is one of my 3D projects. Still a long way off. I would love to do a full architectural model of the STCS:CS modules and systems. It also (unofficial/ concept) stuff for 40K rpg.
- ErnestBorgnine
If you have found an error in my calculations please let me know. More calculations the better. The one area that would be of interest is 'environment footprint' and how much does a person really need to live (at the moment I've over estimated it, rather than under). For example extra area for clothing, or your morning cup of coffee etc.
- Mining
Thanks.
- Comparisons with sky scrappers
I'm using modern skyscrapers to give an idea of volume and to allow people to imagine what I'm talking about by using a common frame of reference. Hives are different, and the twin towers had a 'bad' design, and had to be retro fitted, but still wasn't 100%.
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Post by Philip on Sept 1, 2004 19:21:01 GMT -5
Grey Knights Page 206 Line 7
Looks like they are still making them...
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Post by CELS on Sept 2, 2004 10:26:15 GMT -5
What does pre-moulded mean and what is your point?
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Post by Dazo on Sept 2, 2004 12:32:32 GMT -5
..... seriously. Ok, like ikea, everything is cut, shaped and pre drilled ready for immediate assembly, your familiar with the concept of flat pack kitchens, yes well the imperium seems to do flat pack homes/habitats. This is the reason why i was supportive of STC hives because I knew the imperium made stuff like that (I read grey knight aswell)
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Post by CELS on Sept 2, 2004 16:14:19 GMT -5
Keep in mind that I am Norwegian, so I am not familiar with all of your expressions But I thought everyone knew that. But saying that the Imperium has 'pre-moulded' hives just because they have 'pre-moulded' habitats, is like... a big fething assumption. Like, the Leman Russ is STC, therefore the Sentinel walkers must also be STC. Or, to use an IKEA example... IKEA makes kitchens, therefore they must also make houses.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 2, 2004 19:09:41 GMT -5
After reading through the concept PDF sent through to me, I'm increasingly beginning to think that while the biosphere information is interesting and applicable, the extension of the argument to hiveworlds is not... Maybe I'm just tired and grouchy at the moment but it is one of those points where the 'fluff' would not be bent by the addition, but broken.
And "STC habitats" is meaningless as support for the STC/hiveworld... It's like suggesting that portacabins are a natural proof of the existence of Spacestation Freedom... Naaaah.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 3, 2004 2:49:40 GMT -5
Sorry Ah but they do. not Ikea, but some company in america do make flat pack houses, and no they are not porta cabins kage. in response to your space station anaology, do you think the build the habitation modules in space of are they pre fabricated some where else. The mission to mars will be using prefabricated habitats, so whats your problem with the imperium using them when they decide to colonise new worlds. And the imperium is the future, they probably fabricate whole tower blocks. which is what phil is suggesting...sort of, is it really that much of a leap to believe? your livin in the past kage, quit livin in the past You mean there are moments when your not grouchy ;D sorry, you just made it so easy ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 3, 2004 5:22:02 GMT -5
And the imperium is the future, they probably fabricate whole tower blocks. which is what phil is suggesting...sort of, is it really that much of a leap to believe? your livin in the past kage, quit livin in the past In reference to this whole "STCS:CS" or whatever acronym is currently being used? Yes. As described.
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Post by Tynesh on Sept 3, 2004 9:40:45 GMT -5
I for one have read most of the stuff on the Hiveworld and the STC that has been suggested and feel that such an advanced system of building is not only beyond the Imperium at present but also unfeasible and inefficient.
You have the capability to build a giant structure that can be added over time. So how do you do it?
Do they build a hive with room for 10 million people (just keeping small) then move them in. I don't believe so, for this you would already have the existing 10m people, meaning that they must currently be living somewhere else. If the somewhere else isn't a Hive then they are going to be taking up lots of inefficient space (ie modern cityscape)
Or does the hive grow over time with STC modules being added when needed. This still doesnt work well as it is based on the assumption that the hive a hive from the beginning. They would use STC:Hive components throughout and not STC:City components. This going with the idea that the Hive 'modules' are going to be different and not totally compatible.
The prevelent view on Hives is that they grow over time (millennia) from nothing or a previous large city. They are chaotic and random in construction, with no overall plan. No architect will live long enough to see one completed so styles will change. Local events may dictate how the hive must function in the future. (More people, warzone, high trade, industry, population drop)
I can't see a hive being a long term plan for a human settlement, they just 'evolve'.
A good comparison is London and New York. Both very large population centres currently in the world. Both built and planned to be very different.
London has existed for 2 millennia, it is big, very big, 6 million people live there. It is a world centre of politics, trade and culture. However it was orginally just a small village on marshy banks of a big river. No one expected that in 2000 years (a damn long time) that it would still be there and be the capital city of the one of the greatest nations in human history.
New York is only 350 years old, and like London it is big, and a world centre of culture, politcs and trade. It was built with the intention of becoming a great and illustrious city. It was planned and this is highly evident, straight roads and blocks, public amenities for all etc. London is the bastardisation of 2000 years of British history all influencing the shape of the city.
I can't see a hive let alone a single hive being planned like New York has, over a much longer time scale.
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Post by CELS on Sept 4, 2004 7:46:00 GMT -5
So perhaps it is time to decide the fate of Invictonburg, instead of arguing without a common purpose?
It seems pretty clear to me that Kage is not at all fond of the idea of this type of 'Little assembly required' Hive, and this obviously has a considerable impact on Invictonburg. Personally, I find myself leaning on Kage's side. Thus, one must ask if it is interesting to develop Invictonburg into a more traditional hiveworld, perhaps limiting the STCT to specific installations and modules, rather than entire hives. If not, perhaps Philip should consider abandoning the idea of STCT Hives in the Anargo Sector Project all together, keep the idea for possible Black Library publications, and move onto something else within the Anargo Sector Project.
What do you say?
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Post by Philip on Sept 4, 2004 9:21:24 GMT -5
Well the Invictonburg and the STC:CS threads are getting a little bit on the long side, chops and changes quite a bit and is tad tedious to wade through...
=STC= As for the STC it is integral part of the Imperium and is how all their technology is built, including habitats, to remove the STC is a huge brake with the fluff of 40K.
=============================================================================== =From the new 4th edition 40K rule book= =============================================================================
As Anargo is a 40K sub-sector it has to use STC, I think more thought should be given to STC designs and their ramifications. If everything can be pre-fabed how does that change the way things are built?
I'm just designing bits of STC, and following through on the effects of using such a systems.
=Intentions= Now, just because the STC can accommodate future expansion doesn't mean the Imperium (or GAoT) is building a hive from the get go. The city may become a hive in time, but it is still a city first, or rather a 'Colony City'.
=Mars= A 'Colony City' which may be very different to how we see cities now. Imagine building a habitat on Mars, how would you go about it? Would it look like London when you finished? Or would it look like a self contained habitat until the terraforming kicked in?
The 40K answer to these questions is the STC. Even modern building techniques are becoming more and more like the STC. You can literally walk into an architect's office and choose a house design from a whole range pre existing plans. Many building companies prefab components before getting to site to save time and money.
What's the betting that something like the STC is going to turn up in our future?
=C-Block= Take an average beta class C-Block (part of the STC I'm designing, and there are many types), its a 100 story, 300m cube, houses 1,600 and is fully 'detached' arranged in a grid with rail tracks running in between (yes it does all work, all the people fit in with plenty of space and plenty of food, and no it is not complicated, you could even build them now.)
One single C-Block isn't a hive, its just a very (very) large block of self-contained flats. It may very well be the only structure on the planet, housing all the colonists. It may be hive like (as in a busy populated space like Bee Hive) but I wouldn't call the world a 'Hive World' with this single solitary structure standing on surface.
=K-Block= As the population increases (for what ever reason) new blocks could be built following the grid like patten (good enough for many American cities, so following a grid layout isn't a problem). 9 C-Blocks fit into 1km2 to form a K-Block. This still isn't a hive in my opinion, even though it is densely populated, but as the numbers increase the word 'hive' starts to sound appropriate.
=Hive= A city of 1000 K-Blocks x 1000 K-Blocks is huge and houses a million K-Blocks, that's 9 million C-Blocks and that's a lot of people. When a 'colony city' becomes this large, I think the word 'Hive' is now appropriate.
As pointed out in the fluff, as soon as the world has a single 'hive' upon it's surface it is then classed as a 'Hive World'. There are many different types of Hive in 40K, this is just one example of one type of 'Hive'. I imagine there are may different classes of habitats, and all of them could be built up to a Hive.
If anyone is interested in the numbers of my Hive example, a singe Hive made up of K/C Blocks houses 14,400,000,000 billion (that's more than double the Earth's population).
=Invictonburg= Most of Invictonburg is this 'beta class' habitat, some it is the more militaristic 'alpha class'. It is an (my) example of the STC in action.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 4, 2004 9:53:36 GMT -5
No surprise here, I completely agree with philip. I really don't understand the almost rabid negativity that is being levelled at this idea. To my mind it is almost perfect 40k, at least the way I see it. The STC's are what allowed mankind to explode across the galaxy, I cant help but think that part of the success of this expantion was as the result of prefabricated living spaces amongst other things. To be able to go to a planet, land a city(bit by bit) and have it able to be self supporting from the get go is to me the only way they would do it, its the way we would do it now. And the GAoT is closer to "now" than 40k is. So try not to apply the backward mentality of 40k to that era in human history. And to suggest this would'nt be possible, that a race that can rip holes in reality would have trouble with a bit of civil planning is quite frankly rediculous And I don't want to hear any hokey about that being the sole remit of the mechanicus, the Imperium would be more than capable of achieving this rather small feat of engineering and if they couldn't they'd make the mechanicus do it
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Post by Philip on Sept 4, 2004 10:10:00 GMT -5
No surprise here, I completely agree with philip. Thanks Dazo. I really don't understand the almost rabid negativity that is being levelled at this idea. I don't understand it either. To my mind it is almost perfect 40k, at least the way I see it. I designed it from the off for 40K, and eventually, I hope, these concepts make there way into my artwork... The STC's are what allowed mankind to explode across the galaxy, I cant help but think that part of the success of this expantion was as the result of prefabricated living spaces amongst other things. To be able to go to a planet, land a city(bit by bit) and have it able to be self supporting from the get go is to me the only way they would do it, its the way we would do it now. Exactly, our contemporary society is already showing signs of this 'STC', as mentioned architects and builders are already going down this route, and as a technology example look no further than your PC. A PC is STC in action, as in: pre-build parts slapped together. It's like this all the way up the chain, even chip design has it own database 'STC'. And the GAoT is closer to "now" than 40k is. So try not to apply the backward mentality of 40k to that era in human history. Too true. And to suggest this would'nt be possible or that a race that can rip holes in reality would have trouble with a bit of civil planning is quite frankly rediculous Yep, even New York had a bit of pre-planning hence the grid system.
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