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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 24, 2004 1:57:49 GMT -5
The standard representation of a system can be seen in the "Anargo Standard Representation" thread in this board. Asteroid Belts2 Asteroid belts: One in orbit zone 2, second in orbit zone 3 (habitable zone) See above regarding formatting of the SR... Normal procedure is to keep the information under separating headings, including belt width, average body diameter and 'maximum' body diameter, composition, etc. Gas Giants3 Gas giants in outer orbits Same thing here. =INVICTONA PRIMUS I==XAC2D0F-B [Ag! Fl Hi In] 813 IM 06S= Trade codes change when you make alterations to the UWP statistics. An Ag classification requires a world of UWP Population 5-7 which, obviously, yours is automatically excluded from. With regards to population... A = 10,000,000,000 - 99,999,999,999 B = 100,000,000,000 - 999,999,999,999 C = 1,000,000,000,000 - 9,999,999,999,999 D = 10,000,000,000,000 - 99,999,999,999,999 You currently have a population of around 80 trillion on the world (American trillion, i.e. thousands of billions where the billion is a thousand million). In a word, no... Way, way too high. Reduce Population Multiplier to 1 or 2, then reduced UWP Population to C.
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Post by Philip on Jul 24, 2004 2:12:22 GMT -5
Codes changed to: C & 2, a population of 2.2 trillion. I'll sort the rest out later, must get back to work for now
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 24, 2004 2:22:05 GMT -5
If you could manage it, I would also like an organised copy of how you currently see the hive concept working. Please send to ka_ge2020@hotmail.com unless the file is very large, in which case send to KageMAT@aol.com but PM to let me know that you have done so. I don't currently check that AOL account that often since I'm rarely connected to the 'Net on the computer with the appropriate software (hence the dominance of 'Net-based email addresses)... Thank you for changing the codes. (And completely as a parallel, I don't suppose you fancy producing some eldar artwork do you? I've got horrendously high standards for what I want and you're an obvious choice! If you have the spare time to do it, of course. Not sure whether an artist wants to do art in their spare time, but there we go.)
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Post by Philip on Jul 24, 2004 10:55:33 GMT -5
I'm working on the revised concept.
I will not be doing any specific artwork for Anargo. Having said that, I do have additional projects running loosely related to 40K that my or may not be usable by BL or GW. For example the development of my Eldar anatomy redesign (bet you didn't want to here that!) and Craftworld interior designs (which you may be interested in?).
One another note, there has been vague whisperings of an Eldar artwork for BL. As it would be for BL it would be traditional 100% official GW 40K design. When this would come about is anyone's guess, but I'll let you know if it does (unless its developed under wraps)
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 24, 2004 11:10:48 GMT -5
I'm working on the revised concept. Excellent. I just want to make sure that it, as far as possible, fits into the feel of the 40k universe. I will not be doing any specific artwork for Anargo. Ah well, that's a shame. For example the development of my Eldar anatomy redesign (bet you didn't want to here that!)... <grin> I'd be interested in it, I just wouldn't touch it with a 40k-barge pole, as it were. But in terms of just general interest, then fine. (Mainly because I don't agree with your interpretation of eldar developmental physiology... But again that doesn't make it any less a cool concept. Oh, and if you ever somehow got digit-grade eldar pushed through GW I will hunt you down and kill you a thousand times over! ) and Craftworld interior designs (which you may be interested in?). Now that is something that I would definitely be interested in not only for the sheer feature of the interior, but also for the wider applications to Tir'asur in this project... Incidentally, it's only brief but if you would care to kibitz concepts, etc., then feel free to drop them in here.
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Post by Philip on Jul 27, 2004 12:53:42 GMT -5
If you could manage it, I would also like an organised copy of how you currently see the hive concept working. Please send to ka_ge2020@hotmail.com unless the file is very large, in which case send to KageMAT@aol.com but PM to let me know that you have done so. I don't currently check that AOL account that often since I'm rarely connected to the 'Net on the computer with the appropriate software (hence the dominance of 'Net-based email addresses)... Draft 0.1 has been sent.
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Post by Philip on Aug 5, 2004 0:12:44 GMT -5
Starport added, changed code X to B.
Starport B_____+2 Population C___+2? (only goes up to B) Tech Level B___+2 Resource 6____-3?
Total_________3
Changed Decuma Particular to Exactis Tertius
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Post by CELS on Aug 5, 2004 0:19:30 GMT -5
I suppose you're using my suggested system now. Shame that you didn't post any comments, but there you go.
I didn't include Population C, because I didn't think we agreed that hiveworlds could be that heavily populated. If we did indeed agree on that, then I should change the system. Of course, I'd prefer to learn about this in the appropriate thread, but I'll survive.
Resource value... hmm.. don't know just what I was thinking here. Probably that it didn't make sense to have hiveworlds and industrial worlds that had very little wealth in terms of minerals and such. I'll change the system to include the entire 5-8 range.
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Post by Philip on Aug 5, 2004 0:57:23 GMT -5
I saw it in the latest posts and thought I'd quickly implement it. I'll jump over to the other thread but it looks good so far. ;D
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 5, 2004 8:03:26 GMT -5
[Apologies if this should be over on the other thread]
Phillip, you've mentioned in one thread or the other an advantage of your design being decreased surface-area to volume, but your design consists of multiple interconnected spheres. Wouldn't this in fact be a horrendously inefficient design in terms of surface area? 90+% of each sphere (all but connection points for accessways and supports) is exposed and therefore requires constant monitoring and maintenance. If you build a single structure, most of the hive is nowhere near an outer edge.
A spherical structure with d~500m sounds a bit inefficient. Assuming no wall thickness, if you pack in people perfectly, assuming an area per person of 1m diameter and 2m in height (they're not going to move much in this sample hive), that's a volume per person of 1.57m^3 per person. Your 500m dia. sphere has total area of 65,449,846 m3, so you could theoretically cram in 41,687,600 bodies in there if you stacked them in perfectly and didn't need floors. Or air, since we're didn't leave room for any. Of course, since we didn't put in floors, the ones on the bottom have 41 million x ~150 pounds of people on top of them, so they're not going to be breathing anyhow, but I digress. To digress further, without built in countergrav, I'm not sure what the heck you're going to build the support structures out of to support the weight of a trillion people, but again, I'm digressing.
Even with such unrealistically low numbers, you still need 24,000 spheres to get to a trillion (1x10^12)population. You may have already run these numbers, but doesn't that sound like an awful lot, even with completely unrealistic volume numbers?
Since spheres don't pack particularly efficiently, your hive is going to have an absolutely tremendous footprint, though that's par for the course with hives, I suppose.
Incidentally, this gives a total surface area for those spheres of 23,987 spheres x 785,398 m^2 per sphere, or 18,839,341,826 square meters - or 18,000 square kilometres, if you prefer, each square centimeter of which has to be protected from the outside atmosphere. Even if we take 10% off for connections and supports, that still leaves 16,955 square kilometres of surface to cover.
As this indicates, I have huge problems with even a trillion person hive, let alone a multiple trillion hive, because I can't imagine how it could be practical. Of course, I don't think hive cities in general are realistically feasible, but they're canonical, so there you go.
Your idea of an essentially closed system has a few problems with it. First, I don't think imperial tech is up to it, at least not on the scale envisioned. Secondly, a closed system has no place for heat to go and heat dissipation is a real problem. On this score, the spherical design helps with the large surface area it presents.
How much waste heat is being produced by 1 trillion humans, plus the machinery to keep them alive? In an unenclosed area, this isn't that much of a concern. Put them into biospheres sealed against the outside and it becomes a significant issue, especially if the ambient temperature outside is 41c. At least there's an atmosphere, though - in vacuum you'd have even worse problems.
A human needs to lose heat at a rate of 90 watts due to their basal metabolism. Multiply that number by a trillion and you get the need for a cooling system capable of dumping 90 trillion watts of heat. That is enough heat to, for example, heat 357x10^7 pounds of water from zero to boiling every second of every day.
While this is a huge potential energy source for the hive (or any hive, for that matter), perfect energy efficiency being a pipe dream even in M41, there's still a whopping huge amount of heat to dump from a trillion people.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 12:00:19 GMT -5
Now your just showing off. I was under the impression that the hive segments were cube's, which would make it a hell of a lot easier to slot together. And as for excess heat what happened the the good old heat exchanger a few million of them ought to sort out the heat problem
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 5, 2004 13:38:51 GMT -5
Not hardly, unless you spread out your people a whole lot or you have a truly impressive heat exchanger. 90 trillion watts, mate. I used an online calculator and you have to run the surface of the spheres up to 2000oC to convect that much heat in earth air. Heat exchangers are going to increase the surface available for cooling, but that much?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 23:43:35 GMT -5
These hive were constructed during the GAoT why is it so hard to believe that they would have truly impressive heat exchangers. I would also say that they are probably used in conjunction with other cooling methods, like using the heat as a power source and also air conditioning systems probably using liquid nitrogen or some such thing
Would it be worse if the spheres were cubes
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 6, 2004 1:24:57 GMT -5
Gotta love hard scientists... Thank you, ErnestBorgnine. I've been trying to figure out a means of reducing the population of the hiveworld significantly. Indeed, as can be seen here and elsehwere, I also have a problem with them regardless of their canonical status...
So, perhaps a lovely reduction of population down the B level?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 6, 2004 1:45:39 GMT -5
I would agree up to a point Terra should be the only imperial world with a population of "C". But Phil already said that he was lowering it to a B on your advice Kage(where's the damn raised eyebrow smiley when you need it). And science dependes on the numbers, so change the numbers you change the science. All phil would have to do is move invictonburg further out in the system to make it a colder world and increase the footprint of the hive(which is to my understanding nearly as big as a small continent as it is) Also i will again remind you this is 38,000 in the future if we cant sort out a simple bit of air conditioning, then every thing has to be re examined ie their is no way fusion reactors could deliver enough power to operate warp drives so ...cynical gets...
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