|
Post by Sojourner on Sept 23, 2004 6:47:48 GMT -5
RT versus Codex Imperialis. Direct contradiction.
I take more stock in CI, which refers to it as Construct. So, by this mandate, I'm right and you're wrong. By your interpretation, the reverse is true.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 23, 2004 17:41:22 GMT -5
My memory, now that it has been prodded, and understanding of the idea from the original 'fluff' would also agree with Sojourner's assertion here. STC was a device, not an infrastructure.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 25, 2004 10:56:57 GMT -5
As I understand it, the device (an evolved computer program) took information from the colonists on what they wanted and the colonised world’s conditions and matched an STC design to those requirements.
I would imagine that many designs shared similar components, and the ergonomics would be similar for all designs (for example, all airlocks may be similar, or all habitat doorways a standard size and design).
Standard Template Construction system is a device that houses the ‘database’.
The ‘database’ contains plans for Standard Template Constructs.
As a side note, I think 40K Gothic look is down to the Adeptus Mechanicus changing the STC used by worlds. Perhaps all STC building facades now come in ‘Gothic’ as the AM think it is appropriate.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 25, 2004 17:39:27 GMT -5
That's kind of the problem, though. As you understand it... As I understand it. As Sojourner understands it... ...the device (an evolved computer program)... Oh, it's fairly obvious that STC involved a complex program... for me that would be AI/PI, but not true MI. I wouldn't specifically say 'evolved', although one could readily imagine it being programmed 'genetically', as it were. ...took information from the colonists on what they wanted and the colonised world’s conditions and matched an STC design to those requirements... I find it somewhat ironic that the STC was, following through your argument, the only technology that wasn't standardised, e.g. it was only a program! Wouldn't the somewhat tenuous logic of STC suggest that it would have at least in its basic form come in a 'standard box'? Based upon the world, the materials available, etc., then yet it was supposedly able to modify a design (at least theoretically) and suggest how that it could be built out of those materials... Of course, it would need to have some rather specific sensors to be able to determine material properties, etc... Again you get into the problem of false logic. Yes, it might have told you how to build a fusion reactor out of to paperclips and a forest, but what would the point be? It would be best for it to get you to build a forge and then begin to smelt materials, etc... I would imagine that many designs shared similar components... That things might have shared components does not mean, however, that everything is the same... for example, all airlocks may be similar, or all habitat doorways a standard size and design). But why if it is meant to be alterable to the whims of the colonists in questions? What if they wanted a door that was a bit wider because, well, most people in the colony are getting a bit portly and that new housing is required...? I would imagine that it is the place to start and that 'design momentum' would have a lot to do with artefact construction, but it is not the sole predicate. Standard Template Construction system is a device that houses the ‘database’. And would be standard it's self... Again, though, much of the trouble arises because - for me - part of the logic of STC is flawed. It's one of the things that should have been run by a five year old so that they could point out some of the more obvious flaws... As a side note, I think 40K Gothic look is down to the Adeptus Mechanicus changing the STC used by worlds. The adeptus mechanicus change STC!? The heresy!
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 25, 2004 18:20:28 GMT -5
Oh, it's fairly obvious that STC involved a complex program... for me that would be AI/PI, but not true MI. I wouldn't specifically say 'evolved', although one could readily imagine it being programmed 'genetically', as it were. The 'evolved' bit was from RT. I think a program to 'match up' designs to environment wouldn't be that difficult. I find it somewhat ironic that the STC was, following through your argument, the only technology that wasn't standardised, e.g. it was only a program! Wouldn't the somewhat tenuous logic of STC suggest that it would have at least in its basic form come in a 'standard box'? A program could be standard. Based upon the world, the materials available, etc., then yet it was supposedly able to modify a design (at least theoretically) and suggest how that it could be built out of those materials... Of course, it would need to have some rather specific sensors to be able to determine material properties, etc... I think it just has a vast collection of designs that cover the environments that humans can tolerate. As human tolerances are quite narrow, they designs wouldn't be infinite in number. Solid ground is solid ground, 1G is 1G, 1ATM is 1ATM etc. Perhaps a lot of the success of the STC is picking the 'right' world to begin with? Again you get into the problem of false logic. Yes, it might have told you how to build a fusion reactor out of to paperclips and a forest, but what would the point be? It would be best for it to get you to build a forge and then begin to smelt materials, etc... I would imagine the STC would have to come up with workable solutions, perhaps it has a list of requirements each design needs, and minimum skill level required. If you need to build a warp core, perhaps the first thing it asks is 'do you have a level 5 warp engineering facility' or what ever is required to build a warp core, if not it brings up the specs and a list a requirement for that, and so on until it gets to the level the colonists can actually work at. Perhaps in actual operation the STC asks the colonist not only to to give it all the information on the world resources, but also on all the equipment and all the qualifications each colonist has. The Colonist then set up 'goals' and the STC work out how to achieve it, coming up with step by step plan of all the equipment that will have to be built for the goal to be realised. It may even require colonist to study and take exams to improve their skills. That things might have shared components does not mean, however, that everything is the same... But why if it is meant to be alterable to the whims of the colonists in questions? What if they wanted a door that was a bit wider because, well, most people in the colony are getting a bit portly and that new housing is required...? I would imagine that it is the place to start and that 'design momentum' would have a lot to do with artefact construction, but it is not the sole predicate. Doors today are pretty standard today, you can walk into any DIY shop and get a 'standard' door, bit of a trim and it will fit most door ways and this is without STC. Buildings already have standards that have to be met, and specification of the minimum requirement to meet that standard. That's not to say the colonists couldn't have a custom door if someone has the skills to adapt the design, but why bother once a production line is set up? And would be standard it's self... Again, though, much of the trouble arises because - for me - part of the logic of STC is flawed. It's one of the things that should have been run by a five year old so that they could point out some of the more obvious flaws... The main problem is the 'can be used by anyone'. I just don't see colonies being set up by unskilled people. Yes they could get the plans from STC, but then they have to make it, and that requires at least some skill. The adeptus mechanicus change STC!? The heresy! Maybe I went to far, perhaps they have just removed all the other types of finish.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 26, 2004 8:18:56 GMT -5
All reasonable arguments... And am even swayed by some of them, though I normally dislike the places that you end up taking them. (E.g. the whole hive thing!) The main problem is the 'can be used by anyone'. I just don't see colonies being set up by unskilled people. Yes they could get the plans from STC, but then they have to make it, and that requires at least some skill. Exactly. That is why, for the most part, the STC is a flawed concept from the start at least in how it is represented in the 40k universe. A database of 'designs' is fine, as well as the ability to suggest alternative construction materials based upon measured properties... Hate arguing against myself. Hmmn, a re-statement of concept methinks rather than discussing things along your constructed argubate... STC is a computer 'box' containing an AI/PI program including Engineering, basic Science protocols, etc. I also prefer to make it a 'large box' so that it has sensors capable of measuring the mechanical properties (etc.) of various materials. It is not a 'thick box' which does everything for you, but both the system and the operator can change designs. BUT STC in reference to construction doesn't mean that all the buildings - or whatever - are exactly the same, just that they might share similar components.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 26, 2004 9:16:50 GMT -5
All reasonable arguments... And am even swayed by some of them, though I normally dislike the places that you end up taking them. (E.g. the whole hive thing!) I have to think a lot more the ‘Hive thing’, especially on how they come about. More importantly how the degrade to the current 40K type. Exactly. That is why, for the most part, the STC is a flawed concept from the start at least in how it is represented in the 40k universe. I do think it needs clarification on how it works, and some statements need to be put into context, for example, anyone can input data into an STC and get designs, but you are going to need an engineer/ professional builders to make something of those plans. A database of 'designs' is fine, as well as the ability to suggest alternative construction materials based upon measured properties... I agree, perhaps it collects all the available materials and suggests the best methods (part of the goal thing)? If there is a lack of a ‘required’ material type perhaps to suggests ‘official’ suppliers in the area and who to contact? Hate arguing against myself. Hmmn, a re-statement of concept methinks rather than discussing things along your constructed argubate... STC is a computer 'box' containing an AI/PI program including Engineering, basic Science protocols, etc. I also prefer to make it a 'large box' so that it has sensors capable of measuring the mechanical properties (etc.) of various materials. It is not a 'thick box' which does everything for you, but both the system and the operator can change designs. Rather than having the sensors inside and part of the box, how about a port (USB ) to plug peripherals into. Maybe hand held sensors (as the STC is very valuable/ heavy the colonists do not want to be lugging it about everywhere) for up close scanning, or satellite uplinks for broader scanning etc? BUT STC in reference to construction doesn't mean that all the buildings - or whatever - are exactly the same, just that they might share similar components. I agree, they would all look similar (hence the Imperial 40K look), but they wouldn’t be identical. During the Golden Age of Technology I think Human buildings would look more similar to each other on all worlds than they do now. This raises the idea that buildings may not have had ‘Gothic’ facades during the GAoT. It strikes me that the Gothic facades are ‘artisan’ therefore they may not come under the STC? This would mean that all 40K buildings would all have similar dimensions, but decorated differently. Also some aspects may be different in the actual structure, for example, the STC may have designs flat roofs, domed roof, pitch roofs etc, but the colonist could pick which they like for any given building. So while all domed roofs may be the same (during the GAoT) it doesn’t mean they will be on a given planet, as the colonist make have decided to have all flat roofs.. Must get back to work…
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 26, 2004 11:52:00 GMT -5
...anyone can input data into an STC and get designs, but you are going to need an engineer/ professional builders to make something of those plans. Definitely, which is why the "Adeptus Me-Can't-icus" approach to the adeptus mechanicus is not a tenable stance when applied universally to this organisation. I agree, perhaps it collects all the available materials and suggests the best methods (part of the goal thing)? I wouldn't have the STC collecting the materials. Rather the human operators find a material that they think has some interesting properties and then analyse it with the sensors that are a part of the STC... or that are at least compatible with the STC. If there is a lack of a ‘required’ material type perhaps to suggests ‘official’ suppliers in the area and who to contact? Erm, that's not going to be hard. "See founding world." Rather than having the sensors inside and part of the box, how about a port (USB ) to plug peripherals into. See the above, but for general use chances are that it would incorporate these into itself... ...as the STC is very valuable/ heavy... Why would there be only one? More so if it's just a computer program... I agree, they would all look similar (hence the Imperial 40K look), but they wouldn’t be identical. This could be readily misinterpreted so I'll restate what I was actually getting at. I was merely saying that while there would be common features with regards to certain structures, they would not "all look similar" insofar as 'houses', 'cars', 'tractors' or whatever all look similar. Function does give similarity, but there is no reason that there should not be significant variation in form... ... Thus, I disagree. There would - should - be significant variation in construction between worlds. The Imperium is a homogenising influence, of course, and their structures may "all look the same". That it would also have an influence on the construction aesthetics of a world would also be a given... But buildings do not all look the same. You probably meant that as well, but thought that I would make sure that there is no error in this regard. Otherwise we end up with hiveworlds that all look the same, every building being completely predictable (even down to the hidden passages ) etc. During the Golden Age of Technology I think Human buildings would look more similar to each other on all worlds than they do now. For the above reasons I disagree. Construction is as much a case of aesthetics than standardised construction. Even if you can buy pre-constructed doors, or whatever, doesn't mean that you have to take the whole scabang into the equation. It strikes me that the Gothic facades are ‘artisan’ therefore they may not come under the STC? Gothic would, for me, be an architectural style associated with the Imperium. That doesn't mean that it could not have independently been developed on other worlds, though. And I also would not like to go down the route that aesthetics is only a function of the post-STC construction! This would mean that all 40K buildings would all have similar dimensions... This is the bit where you take what I consider a reasonable argument and then extend it in directions that I not only don't like but also think are not entirely appropriate to the 40k universe. Heck, I'm fairly sure that if STC stored various designs that it also had the capability of including 'demand' variation to the plan... You and me both. First draft of the thesis now complete, which is kind of worrying since I only have 3 more days to get the second (and final draft) completed, formatting and prepared for printing!
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 28, 2004 8:55:08 GMT -5
Definitely, which is why the "Adeptus Me-Can't-icus" approach to the adeptus mechanicus is not a tenable stance when applied universally to this organisation. I agree. Sorry, that should be: ‘collects all the information on available materials’, I’ll edit that. Well, there is that . I was also think if it was part of a wider ‘empire’ that the may be companies favoured by the large corporations of the time (assuming there were corporations etc.) I’m thinking the STC system could be more like a computer network, a central control centre (also like a giant ‘colony organiser’). I was thinking about STC storage systems, 1TB HVD would be a mature and easy to manufacture technology during the GAoT, perhaps a 500 disk autochanger as a NAS? This would be permanent unwriteable storage (to protect from viruses), allow upgrades to the system (official disks). As a note on later STC degradation and system hacking, if a technically minded individual got hold of a HVD burner, they could replace ‘official’ disks with custom disks… I agree. Just like ‘lego bricks’ can be made into a variety of forms, so the component STC parts of a ‘house’ could be arranged in many forms. This is much like design programs for architecture which use ‘standard design blocks’, but each individual pre-fabbed part can be customised in its dimensions (ie. a timber frame wall could be lengthened but still be constructed of the same grade/ cross section of wood, and to the same overall design) Not sure what you mean here. I was saying that the GAoT building may look similar because they do not have the customised facades, centuries of adaptations, and deviation from the STC. I was thinking more of the detailing, the little gargoyles and statues that appear everywhere, the complex moulding and gilt work. Maybe during the GAoT they had a very clean (minimalist?) gothic style, taking the gothic shapes and streamlining them. Perhaps (as and example) the GAoT buildings had high arched gothic windows but without the moulding, clean lines in polished white plascrete and huge single sheet ‘glass’ windows? This would give the GAoT buildings a very ethereal look (similar to LofR Lorien in feel but without the detail and more austere). I could only imagine such a structure becoming popular is new materials became available; ‘plas-create’ would be one of these materials. It would have to be very strong (at least similar to steel), mouldable, cheap and corrosion resistant. Building sections would be mixed up and cast rather than how they are but together now. In casting: probably interlocking forms put together on site and the plas-create poured in one go (so a complete window section would be cast ‘in place’). This is because forms (in blocks/ flat packed) and bag of plas-create would be easier and more efficient space/ weight wise to transport that a complete caste building section). Later, as time passed, the traditional 40K Imperial look developed from the ethereal GAoT design: Slowly becoming more detailed as humans become more religious during the Age of Strife. With the rise in human fear giving a driving force for the direction of design for both internal and external decoration. By similar dimensions I was referring to ‘building standards’, so while a room may vary in size, number of windows and door, the windows and door support structures would be ‘standard’. In the case of a door, the frame would be a ‘standard size’, yet the door may come in a verity of design/ finishes/ furniture etc. (yet the overall dimensions remain constant). Thinking about it a little more: It may be that the door openings in the superstructure are quite wide compared to the actual door and this allows for the frame to be packed before the jamb and a smaller door used (so when ripping it down during demolition, the original STC based structure would be revealed). Good luck!
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 28, 2004 12:32:28 GMT -5
Incidentally have you come across 'my interpretation' to the adeptus mechanicus? Not just the information on the "philosophies" and CELS' wonderful addition of the 'paradigms', but rather the approach to just how it 'works' given a balanced consideration of its origins? Well, there is that . I was also think if it was part of a wider ‘empire’ that the may be companies favoured by the large corporations of the time (assuming there were corporations etc.) A fair enough point. The main counter-argument to it is a counter-argument to interstellar trade in the first place. The greater the distance the greater the cost of importing it and the greater the motivation from improving the local technological/manufacturing infrastructure so that local versions can be produced. I’m thinking the STC system could be more like a computer network, a central control centre (also like a giant ‘colony organiser’). Isn't that now significantly increasing the complexity and, therefore, moving away from the whole point of STC in the first place? ...would be a mature and easy to manufacture technology during the GAoT... I wouldn't limited myself to that, especially when you've got "crystalline" storage stacks, etc., being mentioned in the 40k 'fluff'. They could operate on optical, holographic, quantum/atomic... whatever. As a note on later STC degradation and system hacking, if a technically minded individual got hold of a HVD burner, they could replace ‘official’ disks with custom disks… And the flaw to the approach... colonists are more likely to be of this bent. ie. a timber frame wall could be lengthened but still be constructed of the same grade/ cross section of wood, and to the same overall design Yes, but it is important that you don't go down the route that requires that all buildings be the same. Functionality goes so far, but aesthetics and environmental considerations are always going to be a parallel issue... I was saying that the GAoT building may look similar because they do not have the customised facades, centuries of adaptations, and deviation from the STC. And I was disagreeing that GAoT building would have been necessarily less 'customised' in terms of aesthetics. Yes, it's a 'degree of customisation' thing admittedly... I would not see G/DAoT ships having vents shaped in the form of gargoyle mouths or whatever... that's the kind of thing to give some joy who doesn't really know that much about technology something to do and make them feel like they're a part of the adeptus mechancis or Imperium! I was thinking more of the detailing, the little gargoyles and statues that appear everywhere, the complex moulding and gilt work. Ah, the joy of replying to things sequentially is that sometimes things like this can happen... seems that we were agreeing in part, if not extent. Maybe during the GAoT they had a very clean (minimalist?) gothic style, taking the gothic shapes and streamlining them. Why bother? Why could not other artistic styles work? Let's just face it, non-gothic architectural styles appear in the Imperium. Furthermore, the reference to the 'High Gothic Period' in one of the Eisenhorn books (?) is suggestive that they may be linked to broader social (and perhaps economic) phenomenon; an Imperialist revival, for example? This would give the GAoT buildings a very ethereal look (similar to LofR Lorien in feel but without the detail and more austere). It is an interesting image, but again the thing that I don't like is the extension of a single image to encompass everything. This was the main problem with many of the "concepts" that you have thus far advocated, whether 'hiveworld', 'nRobots' or even 'bubble theory'. It's not the basic concept, which is often cool, but the extent to which it is applied... Later, as time passed, the traditional 40K Imperial look developed from the ethereal GAoT design: Do not forget imposition. Looking at some of the iconography of the Imperium in the early artwork, there is very definite styles from certain periods in there... Might not the Emperor have imposed a certain 'feel' based on what he was trying to create at the time? That this is perpetuated into the modern Imperium wouldn't be that surprising and would have nothing to do with STC. Slowly becoming more detailed as humans become more religious during the Age of Strife. Supposition. Just as technology doesn't necessitate a loss of faith, just so the loss of technology does not require the growth of religion. Both are mal-concepts and ones that not only should be not be dragged into but also that we shouldn't generalise over the entire Imperium... In the case of a door, the frame would be a ‘standard size’... In this very specific example, there are a number of reasons that someone would want a door of a different size... Aesthetics, function, blah blah. Looks like I'm on schedule... just have to finished the second draft revisions to one big chapter, then finalise the changes to much smaller chapters... then whack it into one master document, check through the figure notation and referencing within the text... write an abstract and auto-format table of contents... blah blah. All seems do-able in the next 2 days! ;D <stress>
|
|
|
Post by Egarb on Sept 28, 2004 16:36:56 GMT -5
My take on the stc is that it would have a large database of 'generic' designs for all orts of things, but would have an AI (not MI) that could modify based on input. Say you need a tank, itll ask what kind of tank? It needs to be able to withstand heavy wepon fire and destroy enemy tanks? Ballitics or las? what sort of planet are you on? etc... So it would make a design from basic blocks and apply little things the AI thought up, maybe a bit of extra plating around the gas tank, get rid of an uneccesary component based on materials available, and then detail construction. Suport for this is in www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD126_knights.shtml. I doub't Joe blow tractor farmer said one day "I'ma farm me a meg-o-saur ima make me a titan and itsa suck mah brains to makes it smart!". I also doubt that an STC contained plans for a megasaur farming titan. Little artistic bits are up to the builder at time of contrution.
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Sept 28, 2004 17:37:23 GMT -5
The counter counter argument, the greater the distance high import cost the more money you can charge for said item, thereby making it more profitable, and so making it worthwhile. Thats a cosmetic consideration only, it does not gainsay the arguments for the STC in that it provides a standard based on what is actually available to the colonists for building. If the colony posseses people of a creative pursuation then individuality will layer itself over the base design. Couldn't agree more....ahem No not really, if you were right kage everyone in the imperium would probably be worshipping jesus...or allah...whatever. the fact is humans must have become very.. I don't know non religious for the imperial cult to become what it is. Otherwise whats your iron clad stone cold reason why everyone was so willing to accept the Emporer as a god without having serious cataclysmic religious wars Geiger, yes? hahahahahaahahahaha oh man lol to many beers, hahahahaah dude that was hilarious, you had me spitting beer
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 28, 2004 18:06:05 GMT -5
The counter counter argument, the greater the distance high import cost the more money you can charge for said item, thereby making it more profitable, and so making it worthwhile. Not really quite that simple since it's dependent on the trade network rather than just cited sources... If the colony posseses people of a creative pursuation then individuality will layer itself over the base design. People are, generally, creative. Self-evidently... No not really, if you were right kage everyone in the imperium would probably be worshipping jesus...or allah...whatever. Erm, sorry... Did you actually read what I said? I merely pointed out that just as an increase in technology did not relate to "no faith", thus a decrease in technology did not equate to "all faith". It has absolutely nothing to do with the denomination of faith. the fact is humans must have become very.. I don't know non religious for the imperial cult to become what it is. Hmmn... Do you really mean that? As Phillip stated above, the canonical universe makes some horrendously superficial arguments about religion in that, generally, during the Age of Strife people suddenly found religion. It's a false image, but there we go. Otherwise whats your iron clad stone cold reason why everyone was so willing to accept the Emporer as a god without having serious cataclysmic religious wars I made no reason... you seemed to have misread. But the only reason, if there was one, was "GW says so". The Great Crusade beyond superficial consideration did not occur how GW said it did... Erm, no. Darn stress levels are a-building and tolerance and temperance taking a nose dive... Increasing apologies! All be over 5pm GMT Thursday...
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 29, 2004 6:15:37 GMT -5
Incidentally have you come across 'my interpretation' to the adeptus mechanicus? Not just the information on the "philosophies" and CELS' wonderful addition of the 'paradigms', but rather the approach to just how it 'works' given a balanced consideration of its origins? Not yet, please point me towards these. Hence my ideas on 'nodes' (in the STC:CS draft) and corporation control (see my portent quote below) I'm thinking the STC would be like a 'mainframe computer', with simple dumb terminals hooked up to it. The organiser would be no more complex than outlook/ e-mail/ video link (Maybe the STC even e-mailed colonists a daily list of tasks?) Good point. Hence 40K. All buildings wouldn't look the same (unless is my C-Blocks on 'uninhabitable' worlds, but as a side note, the insides would be different). If building in an Earth like environment there would be greater latitude in building design, though the building may share similar features (if STC) they would look as different. As an example, brick houses share many similar features, bricks for one, and door sizes (according to property value) but there are many design of 'brick house'. Yet all brick houses share a similar 'look' in the majority of cases (just like flat roof/ concrete buildings of the 60s look similar). With the advent of Plas-Crete, it may be that all Plas-Crete building look similar? It may be a person can just look at a Plas-Crete building and instantly know its 'Plas-Crete' (yes there would be exceptions, but I thinking in the 'vast majority of cases'). I wrote this on Portent, and gives an idea of the STC limits that I'll introduce later... Perhaps its to do with the properties of Plas-Crete? What if the strongest structures for openings in buildings where 'Gothic' style aches? I'm thinking that the Gothic look came about not because it was a chosen artistic style, but because it was the most efficient design when using Plas-Crete. If this was the case, the Gothic arch would endure, as it was the best. Unless a new material that was a cheap as Plas-Crete and as strong was invented, there would be no reason to abandon the Gothic look. That's me, always going too far (if you ever get a close look at my art you'll understand what I mean). Too true, I think he would have revived the 'classical look' emulating the GAoT's architecture. This would give a commonality to the newly discovered worlds, as many worlds would remember this style of architecture form long lost myths and art (see below). I think it would make it easier for the Emperor to be accepted, if he built in the style of humanity's 'Golden Age'. (It is only later, after his 'death' that the decorations were added.) I think they lost religion in the first place because their lives were ordered and comfortable, and they lacked fear as they thought they were invincible. That is not to say they lost 'faith', they had plenty of faith in their technology and controlled all of nature (in effect humans thought they were God). The reason I think they became religious during the Age of Strife is because of the emergence of Psykers, or more importantly Daemons! I think most people would start to gain a bit of a need for God when confronted by real, in the flesh Daemons. At the same time their faith in their technology crumbled, and with the warp storms worlds became isolated and cut off form the rest of humanity. This would give a world's government a change in attitude, as it is easy to be tough if you have back up, and with the loss of that backup people would feel very vulnerable. So I think it is a combination of many factors: encountering daemons and a drastic change in situation forcing an even more drastic change in outlook. I think many worlds would remember the old human empire/ federation and over time the memories became myths and a source of hope. With the isolated worlds rise in religion, the image of the old corporations would be changed/ deified as all powerful saviours who would one day find a way to them and make everything right. Then the Emperor of Mankind turns up. Hence the bit about 'packing the frame'. I know how you feel.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 29, 2004 6:46:41 GMT -5
Not yet, please point me towards these. Erm... look on Portent. No time to dig up the original thread at the moment. In fact shouldn't even be posting here, but rapidly writing literature reviews on combined carbon/nitrogen stable isotope analysis, followed by biochemical incorporation of oxygen into auto- and heterotrophs, then another literature review... Oh yes, and then some sections on diagenesis and biomineralisation and... well, that'll be one more chapter 'complete'... only another four to edit, then compile into master document... yada yada. Hence my ideas on 'nodes' (in the STC:CS draft) and corporation control (see my portent quote below) Why not just call them 'parent worlds'? Let's just face it, that's what they are! Maybe the STC even e-mailed colonists a daily list of tasks?) While a single STC would make a great deal of sense, agreed, turning it into the computer that controls all aspects of colonisation doesn't work for me. It's probably an image thing, but I just don't see colonisation being such a 'rigid' thing. People just don't tend to be like that... And god forbid that it turns into an nRobot derivative or predecessor... All buildings wouldn't look the same... Yet all brick houses share a similar 'look' in the majority of cases (just like flat roof/ concrete buildings of the 60s look similar). Yes, yes, I know that. What I'm talking about is the extent to which a concept is taken. Similar means does not mean conformity. That's all I'm getting at. I would find it a horrendously boring universe if all buildings on all worlds had the same look merely because someone thought that is what STC means... With the advent of Plas-Crete, it may be that all Plas-Crete building look similar? Only as much or as little as other buildings. but I thinking in the 'vast majority of cases'). And that's the problem... Yes, there are broad continuities in terms of function - or a brick is a brick is a brick (or whatever) - but to go "Yep, that's a version 1.3.1.4.alpha/2x house if ever I've seen one" is not something that I would feel is appropriate. (On the other hand, I can see the adeptus mechanicus trying to categorise this... Oh yes, and there will obviously be organic developments in building style, ornamentation, etc. ) ...wrote this on Portent... Reasonable other than the statement that a "warp drive requires a Navigator". I'm thinking that the Gothic look came about not because it was a chosen artistic style, but because it was the most efficient design when using Plas-Crete. That is something that I consider a horrendous stretch and also ties into my dislike of the extent of your argument (i.e. building categorisation, above). Too true, I think he would have revived the 'classical look' emulating the GAoT's architecture. Now we're getting a tad circular here... E.g. I define plascrete as requiring 'gothic' arches (for example), therefore a 'classical' look is automatically 'gothic' since it harks back to the G/DAoT, a period where they used 'gothic' arches (because it's the best way to build out of plascrete). I will once again state that I do not agree with this premise and, further, feel that imposition and adoption is a much better and far more interesting approach. Indeed, it is also more consistent with the 'fluff'. I think they lost religion in the first place because their lives were ordered and comfortable, and they lacked fear as they thought they were invincible. Assumption... admittedly part of the shallow assumption that some consider the heart of 40k, but not one that might be considered plausible. The reason I think they became religious during the Age of Strife is because of the emergence of Psykers, or more importantly Daemons!... Assumption, once again, and adoption of the context of 'daemon'/demon with religious overtones. If they're such an irreligious bunch why should they automatically associate malign beings as validating something that they don't even see in the first place? Why must 'daemons' confirm religion? Why must they be viewed as anything but another form of alien? So again, assumption. At the same time their faith in their technology crumbled... Only because GW said it did... that there might have been a step back from certain technologies seems reasonable. Of course, that depends on just how integrated you think that the 'step back' technologies were. If you think that every automated door had an MI in it, then perhaps. It's strange, create a generic event and suddenly ever human is a sheep incapable of originality. I think many worlds would remember the old human empire/ federation and over time the memories became myths and a source of hope. That's not unreasonable. With the isolated worlds rise in religion, the image of the old corporations would be changed/ deified as all powerful saviours... Again, assumption. Hence the bit about 'packing the frame'. [/quoite] Can you say "shoe-horning"? Thought so... Empathy abounds! ;D Good luck right back at 'ya...
|
|