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Post by CELS on Jul 9, 2004 13:12:11 GMT -5
I shall post a longer reply to this tomorrow, but for now... hellguns are laser weapons, that fire "high energy laser beams". Now, though some of you might go "Uhm, that's the same as lasguns", remember that the fluff has lasguns actually firing bolts, instead of beams. Kind of like the Star Wars laser weapons, actually
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 9, 2004 14:11:45 GMT -5
LOL... Smacks of blaster/lasers to me, but that's just my terminology...
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 11, 2004 0:15:44 GMT -5
I am not saying worlds are attacked every other day but they must remain on alert not only because of exterior threats but also because of potential internal menaces to planetary security.
Moreover I don't really see the point in sending troops once in their entire career to this world. Training comes from the constant repetition of actions until they are nothing but instincts to the soldiers, a couple month's training would not suffice, they'd have to return regurlarly.
As to technology I was more talking about super-heavy tanks, some weapons, Titans and the like than lasguns. I understand full well those can be imported
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 11, 2004 1:11:44 GMT -5
Hmmn... negotation seems the best way to go. One 'fact' is that the concept was initiated by the first Lord Anargo as a means of training officers. Second concept is I'm not overtly keen on an Imperial Commander extending their influence beyond the system in an officially recognised form (ick; doesn't quite work with 'cartels'), thus it has gained 'independent recognition' by the adeptus administratum. Thirdly, it was suggested that it would be good as a 'training ground' for PDF... You prefer a Guard/Navy controlled world, which I would rather not have... So perhaps a unique socio-history can be created which integrates rather than merely excluding? That is, after all, a part of the project...
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 13, 2004 0:32:42 GMT -5
Pesonally I'm not very keen on this idea of allowing Imperial Commanders influence outside their own system, even if they are Lord Anargo. IMo moreover the only institution that could sanction such a thing would be the Departmento Munitorum, not the Administratum directly (although they'd come into play as such installation is a planet of its own right and hence has to be governed).
I'm all for trying to bridge our differences. I would say that I do not see the world as being ruled by the IG/Munitorum but that they should be the ones to use it, as I don't see PDF forces leaving their world before they are inducted into the IG.
Just my 2 cents however
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 13, 2004 0:49:58 GMT -5
Remembering that we are not working on the premise that "every world is a castle"... erm, mostly... Pesonally I'm not very keen on this idea of allowing Imperial Commanders influence outside their own system, even if they are Lord Anargo. The idea was instituted by Lord Anargo as an economic concern, amongst other things. In the same way that 'cartels' can extend their influence from one system to another... Then again, that aspect is nebulous, based upon the premise that - somehow - the original Lord Anargo subsequently become involved in the 'end of the Age of Apostasy' in the soon-Anargo sector, e.g. in action against the world(s) of the Sargassos subsector. The system does, however, maintain its own fiefdom and, therefore, Imperial Commander. At this point I would say that the "Academy" is just a work title of one of the concepts of the system which, admittedly, was originally meant to include a 'generic training' ground. as I don't see PDF forces leaving their world before they are inducted into the IG. Give me a reasonable reason why not? (Other than that the transmission of substantial forces under arms without permit could be seen as a direct violation of the pax imperialis, which I already know about.) To be fair, however, switching to a more official organisation is not that much of a problem. I'm keen that the first Lord Anargo maintains a position, however, if only titular. I'm averse to it suddenly becoming a purely schola progenium facility: I find that at present tedious in the extreme. I also do not find the idea of PDF travelling to and from the Academy under warrant to be preclusive of a more official facility. Indeed, kind of reminds me of the times when the Territorial Army goes up against the Regular Army, and for all the same reasons... One thing I am most strongly keen on is this increasing image that there is a tendency to view the PDF as 'militia' and the Guard as the 'standing army'. This must stop as a general rule. While it is true some PDF might take the form of a milita-derivative, I would also point out that it is more than reasonable to have them as professional soldiers. I would further suggest that the Guard are the 'best of the best', as it were rather than just necessarily 'conscripts' without any previous training... The idea that moving substantial number of 'regular' troops without the permission of the adeptus administratum is, well, so obvious that it hardly requires mentioning. We must, however, remember that it is - or should - be possible for two worlds to be broadly at 'war' with each other as long as it does not impact upon the maintenance of the separate fiefs' feudal obligations. Open rebellion against the Imperium, however, is a different matter...
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Post by CELS on Jul 14, 2004 4:14:10 GMT -5
On the training on equipment of PDFs... these vary immensily, in my opinion. Some planets have weapon training in primary school. Others have voluntary military service. Some planets draw Imperial Guard recruits from tribals and gangers, others provide Guardsmen with training and equipment equivalent to that of Imperial storm troopers.
And I'm afraid I don't agree at all with Brusilov's objections. Sure, worlds must stay alert, but we're not talking about 50% of the PDF staying on this training world half the time. It's probably 3-5% at the very most. If an attack is suspected, it doesn't really take too long to reinforce Anargo. In fact, monitor stations in the outskirts of the system are very likely to pick up incoming enemies in time for the troops on the Academy to get home.
The point of sending troops once in their entire career to this world? Well, what's the point of having obligatory military service once in people's entire lives in Scandinavia and various countries around the world?
Another point, is that people are likely to die under such huge firing exercises. I heard that quite a lot of people have died in obligatory military training in Russia. I don't recall the exact percentage, but it was quite surprising. Well, in the brutal training regime of the Imperium, a whole lot of accidents are likely to happen. Artillery strikes falling short, people getting squashed by tanks, etc. This not only gives the medics a lot of experience, but it teaches people to cope with casualties. Well, no, that's not true. But at least they're less likely to freeze when they get in their first real fight.
Also, Brusilov, you must consider the 'rule of cool'. A whole word dedicated to live fire exercises, where gunfire has echoed constantly for millennia... that is cool ;D
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 14, 2004 6:57:13 GMT -5
It's not so much that it can't happen, but flip the argument over and look at it from the point of view of 'Why should they?'
Generally, the reason for troops being moved en masse from world to world is because they've been inducted into the Imperial Guard. All the facilities which make personnel transport happen are geared around this process. It's far from impossible but IMO it's probably a pain in the ass for the Imperial Commander involved and most likely not worth the effort, considering he has to pay for it all.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 14, 2004 11:25:44 GMT -5
A fair and reasonable counter-argument. There is no reason that they cannot perform battlefield manoeuvers on their own world except through an extension of conspicious consumption...
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 14, 2004 20:19:49 GMT -5
I would not, simply because you and I don't see eye to eye Kage And also because I still cannot see how this concept would work within the framework of the Imperium
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 1:29:19 GMT -5
Shift it to Imperium training facility, then. I'm really not that bothered, to be fair. And the world would work within the context of the Imperium... just not in your interpretation. Anyway, shifting it to a facility supported by the departmento munitorium is fine. Lord Anargo (the original) becomes a prominent figure in the past in setting it up (politics), but that's it... It won't be the 'sector naval base', however. That's already taken... Oh, and PDF can still go there for specific reasons. I can still see reasons why this would be the case and 'cost' really doesn't factor into it. (Unless you really are advocating that PDF are second-class soldiers which I'm sure that you're not... although GW imagery creates a superficial seeming that this might be the case.) And conspicuous consumption can explain a great deal about the Imperium. The size of their thrice-damned ships, amongst other things.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 15, 2004 1:44:20 GMT -5
Why not use it for training Storm troopers and other elite companies only, it would then give you the excuse to say that the anargo sector has a higher proportion of these troops than other sectors might have. I can see the anargo sector being the centre of excellence in the ultima segmentum for this troop type with guard units being sent from outside the sector to take part in joint military training operations
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 2:11:48 GMT -5
Since there are so many 'complaints' against a world concept which allows cross-training of PDF, I prefer the shift to Guard/Navy more so given the relative position of Anargo to Castellan.
And I'm guessing that Stormtroopers will make an appearance...
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 15, 2004 2:13:44 GMT -5
I believe that it the premise of the Academy, a training ground for officers as well as for Storm Troopers and the like. ST are from the Schola Progenium and then trained to high levels of skill. I see no reason why they wouldn't be partly trained here. Remember that ST are not tied to a particular world, instead they are sub/sector wide companies within the IG structure!
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 15, 2004 23:35:18 GMT -5
I might deal with it once I'm finished with Urelsk (and that may take some time). As you're the one that came up with the idea Kage, we'd have to brainstorm stuff together over MSN at some point (like when I'm back home).
Training facility for Stormtroopers seems good as well, they get theoretical training from the Schola and practical from this facility
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