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Post by zholud on Aug 16, 2004 1:18:43 GMT -5
Here are my comments, with original stuff in bold not to insert to much quotes. PROCULUS II (Opion) You really have 4 gas giants? I just guessed it is quite a lot, especially considering that they are quite close to the star. Population: 2,8000(mine workers) Still unsure whether you’ve meant 2,800 or 28,000. I guess the latter. Though it never get warm enough for the ice to melt Are you sure? Base -17, and +15 on equator and if day is long enough you may get about +5 at the end. Also recall that salty water freezes at much lower temperatures… and IIRC, but I may err, heavy water with lots of salts becomes gel instead of ice. Not that you have to have it, just an idea you may use. Check google however, I may err. There is one city/mining complex called Natanya which is surrounded by black slag heaps, the by-product of ore smelting, and is extensive enough to be seen from orbit Black s also heat absorber, it is possible to melt part of the ice by ashing it even if temperature is below zero. Also on smelting – what do you use as fuel and what is instead of coking coal used in enriching/pig iron? The workers themselves are not excluded from this process but are encouraged to get involved and give their views on the running of the facility. This has the effect of increasing worker morale and self esteem, which makes for a more loyal work force. Looking on Japanese and south-eastern Asia experience where productivity is the highest at the moment, I still doubt that mere workers have to have their say. I’m far from being arrogant worker-hater, moreover I’m strongly against those practices… but they seems to show that more power to workers decreases their productivity in long runThe possession of weapons is actually prohibited due to the dangers of explosive decompression, though its often the case that many miners do own some form of small arms. Why do they have them, especially considering that This is tolerated so long as they are not used against the security force or fellow workers. Against who they are used? The level of resources in the system require an efficent workforce and extraction methods, also a high degree of self sufficiency. What those self-sufficient guys eat? Their rich ore? So every 5 years when the miners contracts expire, all resources required for the colony are shipped in with the new work force. This drastically reduces the cost to the company of running the colony. I cannot get what you mean – why old retire in 5 years? On you multiply population each 5 years? Or old ones are used-up, filled with radiation and rare diseases and dismissed? Also recall that transportation is not cheap, far from that. However with the mechanicus presence superseding the authority of the company, it means that tithes are not collected, as Proculus is considered to be a Mechanicus world. Seems there is no such thing as Mechanicus world, only forge world and research station. I’m unsure that Administratum is happy with this tax evasion. ;D The defence force consists of roughly 2500 security personnel. This is about tenth of population, if 28,000 figure is correct. Why so much bastards with guns around… no external threat, no riots… I’d say drop it not even to 250 but to 80… its small colony, afterall. The first records of Proculus date back to the 24th millennium, a brief survey which revealed nothing of any interest to the Imperium, no Imperium and no imperial classification in M24 General question to discuss – whether company may set imperial governor or really control him/her on several planets… it is quite dangerous to let company with warp-transport to control a planet. In M36 something was discovered that changed this, during routine ice extraction the miners discovered a structure of unfamiliar design buried under a km of ice. Recall, we need full info, so what is it?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 16, 2004 2:02:58 GMT -5
Ok first off thank you for commenting, i'd started to worry you really hated it and weren't going to respond Thats what the UWP said so I went with it. Yeah I always worry about gas giants and stellar proximity, but apparrently it does happen that way in other planetary systems so... yep 28,000 but thats after a couple of millenia, it started out at 8000 Yes but recall also this world has a thin atmosphere and high reflectivity due to all the ice. Once a world gets this way it can't go back without atmospheric change's, this happened to earth in the past, luckily we have a geologically active world so the masses of greenhouse gases released from volcanoes allowed the ice to melt. I could have it so the equitorial ice is thin, allowing life to thrive beneath it, so that could be food problems sorted out. This is on land so i'm not sure what significant effect this would have. They could mine for it, this world used to have a thriving eco system so you might well find coal and oil and gas. Thats how it used to be in the factory where i used to work, i loved it i felt important and more interested in what we made, then they changed it and to be honest i couldn't have give a monkey uncle after that, if what we made had dead flies or human body parts in them what did i care, so thats where i'm coming from when i wrote that. I really want this to be the way this company works, so do you think we could just leave it the way it is...please As you well know space mining can be a riscky buisness what with xenos and pirates, so thats why some old prospectors carry weapons, plus it makes them feel like big men This is a well paid job so there is high demand, but also a dangerous and possibly mentally very stressful. The 5 year contract is a kind of safty thing, you can have your contract renewed, but why you are not being fired as such mearly being moved to a new locale. In the future you might well return to proculus. Also with every thing that you will need for 5 years of work being brought in means the only reason for ship travel to the sytem or from it will be to transport the merchandise you are making your money from yeah ok i'll lower it So i would have to change the world to a research base, or might the mechanicus be willing to have a word with the administratum on behalf of the company yep i'll have to change that, it will also clear up the mystery of what lurks beneath the ice well i've done that let me know what you thinki'm thinking the obtained an imperial charter giving them the authority to set up a mining colony
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Post by zholud on Aug 16, 2004 5:09:57 GMT -5
Ok first off thank you for commenting, i'd started to worry you really hated it and weren't going to respond I don’t answer only because I lack time quite often. But I guess your corporation/workers are very interested in warming up somehow their world if it does not cost them much. You life figure for the planet is no life, so maybe drop this aquatic life… after all most of our worlds get some local species, so this is a nice change Plus if you have flowing water it also does not melt. Just a suggestion. Coal is for sure is formerly living tissue, namely burned and pressed wood. OIL is organic (i.e. hydrocarbon), and probably also should be connected to life. You can use electricity for electrolyse or some other techniques… ok, no problem… I just was afraid to have too peaceful planet for dark future where is only war… So I allow it Meksum sub is so economically active because it is far from xenos threats, and pirates are very specific subject per se – who gives them warp-capable ships? You may have guns, but I just point that they are miners in calm sub, not warriors… And I still prefer more constant population, not a lot of new faces each 5 years. In Angels of Darkness there were two guys-miners who wanted get good money on Mechanicus mine, but tricky employees pushed them to pay for warp travel. Note – they don’t even hope to get a ticket back in their lifetime
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Post by Dazo on Aug 16, 2004 5:37:28 GMT -5
Yes I suppose they wouldn't mind, but it would take more than darkening the surface. Perhaps the mechanicus can get the gravity generators working again and attract an atmosphere. However at the moment it will remain frozen
I thought it had a life value of 5 giving it primitive aquatic life. The problem is zholud that whenever you have liquid water and a little bit of warmth life has an annoying habit of appearing, even in extreme conditions, so why would this world be sterile it needs to be a good reason and I don't have one
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Post by zholud on Aug 18, 2004 5:32:45 GMT -5
Yes I suppose they wouldn't mind, but it would take more than darkening the surface. Perhaps the mechanicus can get the gravity generators working again and attract an atmosphere. However at the moment it will remain frozen I just wanted to emphasise that you get artificially create hot open areas on cold planet as by-product. On earth, yes, but what about other planets? Comets have ice/water and Mars too. Even Moon seems has some deposits. But no life or very doubtful traces of it there. While once emerged/created the live keeps burgeoning it does not means that it emerge/is created everywhere every time. Seems opposite is true in real world But we can hope… You can look up metallurgy in your spare time, I guess there are several ways on ore enriching, ferrous metal extraction w/o usual furnace with coke and converter afterwards… I hope you’ve get last phrase ok to both plus point out that ones who go in come with imported stuff needed on the planet/system and ones, who retire/dismissed go on export routes… I just cannot imagine passenger warp liners for workers – too expensive. depends on pressure as well plus how salty is original water. Moreover absolute max temperature is on hottest point in hottest hour of the day – so you still can get above zero. Not much, I agree.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 18, 2004 23:19:09 GMT -5
Right i think i've adressed most of your comments, so let me know what you think when you get 5 minutes, hopefully we can start getting some finished worlds posted for Meksum.
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Post by Zholud on Oct 1, 2004 9:40:43 GMT -5
Here comes long awaited commentary on SR made by Dazo. I encourage everyone to comment and even tear apart my comments… otherwise its going to boil down to dialogue once again. Are the winds really so severe if atmosphere is thin? I understand they can be fast, but their energy can still be to low to notice w/o equipment. This is played on the basis on idea that every planet should have life, now or at the past? Isn’t it too cliché? Do they mine deeply below the ice (fewer marks on surface) or the ice is not that thick and they are able to get open-ground mining? I doubt that such large moons can really exist… at least the tides will be so great that surface will be constantly cracking and twisting. Generally the forces can be calculated, I’m just lazy to dig up formulae… maybe The world, which started as the mining colony… otherwise you run on the problem that private corporation controls a planet and even more stuff, which brinks on heresy – too much power on one hands. You haven’t thrown in any links between site overseer and planetary governor – are they the same person? Who cares about loyalty if they don’t have any other way to be employed? I remember that you tried to put on real life ideas you’ve met, but they aren’t from such a monopsony (single buyer) as at this planet. Use sonics, cold steel, blunt weapons… old problem is once again why the need weapons? Especially if I were attacker, I use the explosive decompression at the very start. Isn’t it too costly for lowly bastards, who committed the crime? Still can’t get it… why shipping 10 pieces on something is much less costly they the same stuff shipped separately? After all each day/week/month you get empty transport that takes metals off world? Or they do it only once per 5 years?! Nothing is free. Someone pays for it. For fuel, food, oxygen… Aren’t they too hi-tech and restricted to Mechanicus? Did CELS allowed it? I just have strange reaction on all those duty free and off-shore firms. This sets another question on whether Mechanicus allow laymen and not adept to run the planet. I doubt it. As I said before – spell-check. ;D Backward time travel? There is a difference between using Imperial planet as a resource base for a company, and settling the world just because company wants it. you downplay Administratum power too much I guess. So what was that something? I recall you offered to give details. At the beginning you’ve said its Mechanicus world, thus no tithes… Mechanicus cult started about M25, so no research base at M24. moreover, AM started seeding worlds with forge ships somewhere about M28 I guess… When they were actually in shadow of Eldar… mankind started to rule the galaxy only after the Fall I guess. Although even official fluff says humans were cool, this I guess is usual exaggeration made by nations in real world as well. Uh, started writing this post 4 days ago
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Post by Dazo on Oct 2, 2004 6:23:12 GMT -5
Ok in anticipation of your response I have already changed some of the things you touched on. Doesn't mars have a thin atmosphere but also powerful winds, this is what I was thinking when I wrote that so if anyone knows the answer let me know. Would you prefere a more definite answer, either there is life or there isn't. Yes they do, but they also strip the surface ice for numerous purposes. Mining produces alot of waste material, this is what iwas refering to about the scars, mostly... Well thats what was generated by H&E so... besides one of the moons is heavily volcanic, also these moons will be quite small as the mainworld is also quite small so gravitational tidal forces should be quite low. I just don't see why the administratum would really be bothered, its just a small mining world with a low population, I honestly feel beyond the company asking for permission to mine the world, that aministratum really wouldn't care who ran the planet as long as tithes were met or whatever the agreement was. Well, ok, do sonic weapons exist in the imperium. I was mainly refering to firearms though so I will clarify that. Old answer, because it makes them feel like big men. Power zholud, thats why, Why do i need two samuri swords, I live in england, how much chance is there that we will be invaded, none. I have them because I want them thats it, no real need beyond its cool to have several feet of sharpened steel in your bedroom. Am I ever going to use them, NO, but I still want them. Has that put your mind at ease zholud, will you sleep tonight Probably, but the cartels are not as into murder as the imperium is so they do things right, moral highground is the term. Ore ships leaving the sytem will be filled to capacity, if at all, processing plants, and export warehouses are the destination of these kinds of transport ship. If I do as you seem to be pushing for, tithe the output, then there will be no reason to move resources out off system as the tithe ships will be comming to collect it. However if they can ship in enough supplies to last for five years and new workers, then they can also ship out the ores and other resources they've gathered plus the retireing workers. They have to do this anyway so whats the problem, its not really going to be more costly, it would actually save them money. This is on the one ship or two, whatever it takes, depending on the tithe and how much of what is mined is classed as theirs Free for the workers, but yes someone pays, but since the worker have spent the last 5 years mining and processing at least two of those reasorces then I don't see it as to much of a hard ship for the cartels to endure. No, Anexus was founded very early, they did not lose all of their technical know-how during the age of strife, they have grave plates and suspensors albeit not on a par with eldar technology. Eg a world with zero g, the grav plate would only increase the gravity by 40% percent, they are not perfect but they work. sorted that out I'll change that bit if your uncomfortable with it Yes but if the I mperium didn't want it why would they care about a small, desolate lowly populated world run by a mining company. Hell they could probably do it with out telling the admin a they wouldn't even notice. I believe I did give details Ill change it. So if not a mechanicus research base then who, what were scientists called during the GAoT
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Post by Dazo on Oct 3, 2004 4:31:46 GMT -5
Zholud made a good point, might some one else also care to comment on Proculus
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Post by CELS on Oct 3, 2004 9:02:41 GMT -5
[/li][li] Proculus II (Opion) - Note that this is a gas giant, and is thus unlikely to be called a 'world'. [/li][li] Proculus III (Licydas) - Please use the full name of the corporations, and not just ATC and LMC. Even better would be to say that the corporations of Proculus Alpha in general have little interest in Ikel. Actually, you might want to reconsider the phrase; "Ikel is the largest of the rocky bodies that orbit Licydas but beyond that it holds no interest for neither the A.T.C or the L.M.C. " It holds interest for the ATC and LMC merely because of its size? [/li][li]Proculus IV (Megaera) - Note that the hydrosphere describes the percentage of the planet's surface that is covered with water, so you can't just say that the water is under the surface and call it a desert world. If that is what you were doing, that is. PROCULUS ALPHA....[/li][li]Population and world class - Dead worlds have no population. [/li][li]Whilst 'though' is a good word, you shouldn't use it too much [/li][li]Forgive my ignorance, but how does the tidal effect of moons keep water warm? [/li][li]Consider these two sentences: "It has retained a certain desolate beauty despite this, the thin atmosphere lends a midnight blue tinge to the sky. While the reddish sun paints the ice with pastel pinks and reds" [/li][li]Once again, I ask you to look at the structure of your text. Paragraphs, etc. I have explained this to you before [/li][li]For a mining complex to be seen from orbit, it must certainly be quite massive. Considering the low population of Proculus Alpha, how can this be true? [/li][li]Note that the population description should only give the population of Proculus Alpha itself. Not the Proculus system. [/li][li]You write that the 'overseer' is to all intents and purposes the planetary governor (we prefer the term Commander, by the way). This suggests that he is not really the Commander of this world. Who is? [/li][li]I really wish you would expand on Religion, Dazo. Aren't there any major religious groups on this planet? And what's this about 'a preacher'? Is there only one preacher on this planet? [/li][li]Weapons are prohibited, but tolerated? Would it not be better to say that they are allowed, but only to be used in self defense, and then only in the most dire of circumstances? [/li][li]"The medical team, like all of the ATC expeditions, hail from Qechit." Out of context, this is rather useless information, I'm afraid. Also, please do not try to cram in mention of your other creations as often as possible. I'm not saying that you should never do it, but rather try to do it where it makes sense. For example, we didn't really need to know which pattern lasguns the security force uses. (As it happens, it was the Leskus pattern, of course) [/li][li]Please specify which world the criminals are sent to, and note that Proculus Alpha is also an Imperial world [/li][li]Reconsider the structure of this sentence: "Mixed, again this will depend on the world the individual came from, though a good grasp of low gothic is expected, for obvious reasons." [/li][li]I think your description of the PDF needs some work. As I've mentioned above, we don't need to know which pattern lasguns they use, or whether or not they use automated gun posts, mine fields, etc. I also found it kind of funny that you wrote 'roughly 260'. Why not write 'roughly 264'? [/li][li]To me, it's a bit unlikely that Mankind knew about this world for twelve thousand years without scanning for valuable minerals. In the Age of technology, I don't really think they investigated planets by just looking out the window of their spaceship, and judging the colour of the planet. I'm pretty sure all scout and explorator ships scan for life and valuable minerals. I suggest you come up with another reason for why it was not colonised earlier. [/li][li]Adeptus Mechanicus with capital letters, please. And most of the time, it is better to write 'Three weeks' rather than '3 weeks', and to avoid abbreviations like '100 sq miles' [/li][li]The Adeptus Mechanicus did not exist before the Age of the Imperium, and the Cult Mechanicus did not exist before the Age of Strife. [/li][li]I see no reason why this world would not pay tithes, like any other mining worlds. The small Adeptus Mechanicus research team does not change anything in this respect. Proculus Alpha is not the sovereign of the Adeptus Mechanicus. So pay your tithes, please Scientists
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Post by Dazo on Oct 4, 2004 3:46:27 GMT -5
World sounds better than planet, and as far as I knew both words could be used to describe a gas giant. I cut that reference, and the sentence about Ikel has also been removed. I don't see how it would be possible to have seas that far out in a solar system, its to cold, the ice would end up trapped in the ground like mars. Ok I'll see what I can do It cause's friction in the planets core, which causes geological activity, this heats up the water. The same thing is suspected to happen on europa errm full stops in the wrong place, poor sentence construction, to flowery? Yes you have, it was better than the first one I did for seleca though surely I'll change that So what a planetary governor, this isn't a militatry world. He's the governor/commander, I'll try and make that clearer. The company is not the imperium they have different names for things, thats all I meant by "to intents and purposes" Yes i had forgotten that, Ill have to play around with some more ideas. Its a generic imperial cult that the company provides, in terms of place of worship and what is preached, the same goes for the preacher. People are encouraged not to have large cults of their own, but to worship privately in their own cell. Lip sevice only is paid to the eccleisiarchy by the company, people are here to work not start religious riots. Yes it would, i'll change it Well then whats the point of writing anything about the PDF, if you can't say how many of them their are what type of weapons and defences they have then its really a pretty much redundant part of the SR is it not. To small, to few resources for the Imperium to get excited about, to much hard work when there are so many other worlds that were better for colonisation than Proculus, would require to much logistical support, support which was needed else where. Pick one or two and I'll go with that. Insightful, so it would just be called a scientific research base from the GAoT All stuff relating to the Mechanicus will be modified. Tithes, would the imperium take ore in tithes but also pay in money for them.
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Post by CELS on Oct 4, 2004 7:27:33 GMT -5
The lack of smileys in your post, Dazo, reminded me that perhaps I was too harsh in my criticism and didn't really give you any compliments. Rest assured, I really think that you're catching on and adapting to the ASP 'norm' and I'm glad to see that you're taking our comments into consideration. So keep up the good work World sounds better than planet, and as far as I knew both words could be used to describe a gas giant. Having looked it up in the dictionary, I'd say that 'world' could technically be used, as it can be defined as a 'realm' or 'domain', but I've never seen it used that way in 40k fiction, and I prefer not using that word about gas giants. It's a minor detail though. You can also call a gas giant a planet, although this deviates even further from the norm, in my opinion. Well, if it's very cold, the seas will be frozen solid. They'll still be there though. Since it's so cold, it's not like they'll vaporize. And don't forget that the hydrosphere says nothing about how much water is trapped in the ground, so there could be a lot of water in the ground already. Cool. Didn't know Something like that It certainly was! Still, it would be much appreciated if you followed the normal AAAAAA AAAAAA AAA AAAAAA AAAAAA AAAAAA AAAAAA AAA etc... I assume that was a question and a statement crammed into one A planetary governor is the supreme ruler of an Imperial world, empowered by the Adeptus Terra. A planetary governor can also be the system's Commander, which makes him the supreme ruler of the entire star system (including asteroid fields, gas giants and other worlds in the system). This isn't a military world, no, but the title of 'Imperial Commander' is not only a military title. It basically means the same as 'planetary governor' in many ways. As we have said before, all Imperial worlds must be ruled by an Imperial Commander, with very, very few exceptions. Good, I see. Just remember that eventhough the company calls him the Overseer, High Executive or whatever, he will still bear the title of Commander in the Imperium. Just like the Overlord of Nagoma is a Commander and the Fair enough, although people with the same religious conviction tend to flock together. And when you write an updated version of this SR, it would be wise to write the religion part so it doesn't sound like there is only one preacher on the planet. You can mention that the company provides places of worship, like you said. It doesn't hurt to make the SR a bit long You have a good point, but I think you misunderstand me slightly. Compare the following two examples. "Proculus Alpha has a standing army of less than five hundred men, who form the external security force of the city Natanya. This acting PDF force is equipped only with portable small arms, most of which are lasguns of high quality. While there are a few automated external gun turrets, this PDF does not have any tanks, aerocraft or other supporting warmachines." "Proculus Alpha has an army of 320 security personnel. They are equipped with Leskus pattern lasguns, Proteus pattern mesh armour and Lux pattern frag grenades. Favourite support weapons are missile launchers and flamers. Though the PDF has no tanks or aerocraft, they do have gun turrets which are armed with quad autocannons."I prefer the first of these two. Of course, it's cool to include some details, like if they're armed with boltguns, power armour or stuff like that, but I made the examples different to prove a point Initial scans showed that the world had fewer resources than other worlds nearby, not to mention that other colonised systems in the subsector had many mineral-rich moons. Sound good? Yep! The Imperium takes tithes in whatever it needs. Like ore, gold, whatever. If Proculus Alpha produces more goods than the Imperium demands in tithes, they can sell this to the highest bidder. [/quote]
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Post by Dazo on Oct 4, 2004 10:25:46 GMT -5
I wasn't being grumpy I assure you, while you are as ascerbic as ever your comments are helpful in forcing me to see, or at least glimpse, another way of looking at my work. Of course compliments are always welcome ;D I've changed that, part so it reads "cool green gas giant" Ive looked at that, and I never actually say there is no water on the surface only that much of it is locked up underground. As for the rest of your comments, i've read them and i'm going to try and modify/include everything you and zholud have touched on, it might take awile though.
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Post by Zholud on Oct 12, 2004 7:40:50 GMT -5
GovernmentThe running of the colony is in the hands of the site overseer … selected by the Cartel from amongst the older managing directors, Once again I humbly propose either give more info on why Administratum allows private company to choose imperial governor or not mix imperial and company’s representatives. Of course you can have weak, purely nominal imperial commander, who just sits there because he has to… Religious practice is not dictated by the company, the individual may practice the imperial creed in whatever manner they were accustomed to before they came to work for the corporation. It is the policy of the cartels to encourage workers to worship in private, large unsanctioned religious gatherings are prohibited. Any hope to get more on their customs, possible saints-protectors, etc? I caught the idea that they are not overly religious, but I guess you have to add more mystery and spiritual stuff – its dark Imperium after all, workers at least need protecting amulets and phials with holy oil from Mechanicus – after all they work with tech. you can ever have some mix of Mechanicus and Imperial, Ecclesiarchal creeds. This is a mining facility run by the Corporation. Who runs everything else – bars, motels, shops, brothels, repairs, etc. who supplies from off-world and thus who sets prices? There are detention area’s for law breakers who are held in zero g cells until the next transport leaves the system. Why in zero g who cares? The technology used is fairly advanced, though all of it is supplied by the company. Why Mechanicus don’t sell flashy things to natives? Why corporation sold weapons if it asks not to use them against fellow workers, etc – it is better not to supply them at 1st place ;D BTW on above question – Imperium uses sonics, at least large sonic blasters for sure. Tithes for Proculus were set quite low by the Administratum, it was only a small colony after all. It was small colony looooooooooong ago so tithes should increase, at least once per century…
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Post by Dazo on Oct 12, 2004 9:30:21 GMT -5
Yeah that works for me, would the administratum appoint its own military commander and allow the company to choose the right man for the economical management of the colony.
Ah well now, you are asking akward questions there, they sort of touch upon a sensitive area for the cartels, you might end up being fogged by a dropper if you dig to far. The Cartels do not like the Imperium, they submitted to imperial rule grudgingly, the Mechanicus are not allowed on Anexus, they are looked on with disgust, the eccliesiarchy are veiwed no better. The administratum and the inquisition are fine with this, as the Cartels have shown no interest in casting off imperial rule, and when left alone to get on with what they are doing have vastly increased the wealth of the sub sector, and they have done it to a faster time table than the imperium could have managed.
There is a conspiracy and secret organisations involved, but not really on proculus itself, so i'll leave it at that.
The trinkets you speak of would have to be brought in by the workers themselves, as the cartels are not willing to pay the cost of shipping them in.
The Imperial preachers are only there because the terms or the charter state that religious needs of the workforce must be provided for, the cartels provide the bare minimum their contract allows
The company runs them, the bars and brothels that is, their are no shops or any non mining related premises. So you work, drink, have sex and sleep, hell i'd work for them
yep i'll change that
Ok, but they would also have to increase realisticaly, otherwise the mine would be shut down and the company would abandon the planet, so the way I see it the adminisratum will be glad to get anything from a world they had no interest in colonising
You also might like to re read the descriptions as I have changed some of the things you and Cels suggested, unless of course you have re read it, in which case ignore me
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