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Post by Destecado on Aug 17, 2004 5:29:20 GMT -5
I have several gas giants, I'll go about converting one or two into ice-suppliers....maybe even have one be oxygen-heavy, the other hydrogen heavy....ultimate water supply!?!? Or is that too "Star Trek Physics"? Mining the rings of gas giants and asteroids for ice shares alot of imagery with the 40k universe. It is also more cost effective and lower tech, allowing for private citizens to be ice miners or ice prospectors. Siphoning the hydrogen and oxygen of gas giants may require more technology that makes it too expensive for the general individual. You may have larger corporate concerns extracting water in this method, but I also see room for your lowly one ship operators mining ice as well. Maybe this is where some of the smuggled water comes from. Ooh, polar cities. This is definitely a nice idea, and gives me a reason to increase the population past 10-15 million. The only problem is those months of light, which would scorch/fry/ruin anything left above ground. With the size of the Cities brought into question, it'd be a minor problem constructing frameworks that can be easily taken down and concealed underground. Some sort of scaffolding would be neccessary , I'd imagine. The polar bases will not be the original mining colonies. The Adeptus Mechanicus supplied the giant track systems out of their vaults in exchange for their now-considerable share of power in its governing. I would ask you to reconsider the polar cities as the original mining colonies on the planet. If you take nto account nothing other than a profit and loss schedule, having the original facilities at the poles makes sense. The polar regions could be manned and construction could be accomplished in several months of darkness. A base underground rather than as a permanently moving facility would not only be less costly to build, but also less costly to maintain. The original settlements may have started out as private concerns. and over the centuries the cities in the polar regions became larger as more workers came to make their fortune off the rich minerals on the planet. The way I see it, the planet would have had to first prove itself as a viable source of raw materials for the Adeptus Mechanicus, before they would lay out the kind of technology that would be required to run the tracked districts. Also if the Adeptus Mechanicus were the ones that pushed the beginning of mining on the planet, they would have first started with the easiest minerals to extract or in an area that offered the best conditions for extracting minerals. This would still mean the first operations would have started at the poles. I'm not discounting the importance of the mobile districts. All I am saying is that the mobile facilities probably came after the polar regions had been mined out. Another thing to consider as well is the fact that the companies or families that run the mobile districts would have had to lay out quite a bit of money for their construction. Is it more resonable to assume that the initial outlay for the mobile platforms was made to extend the mining range of a company that had already made great profits from the planet. If you look at the oil companies from our own time. Of shore oil platforms only came about after oil reserves on land began to dwindel. I Like the "wounded beast" imagery. Pirates would not be a likely problem, since the sun itself prevents approach by large numbers of unshielded ships. Small bands aren't going to be able to take over a city. The raiders need not be small bands. What about raiders financed by one of the other district trying to take out the competition. You also need to consider how the pirates might go about attacking the much larger district. I agree that a direct assault would be suicide, but what about sabotaging the track in from of the district? Instead of trying to steal the mineral wealth of the district, they might be after its water tanks. Water would be as costly as gold on other worlds. They could also attack the outriders or pathfinder units hoping to steal their vehicles and equipment. It does not always need to be a direct attack on the district itself. Steam power?Well, I guess it would work. Seems kind of old-fashioned in the Imperium's age of Nuclear Fusion and waht-have-you. It would be cost effective and not as technologically intensive as other means of power production. Just because you have the means to use a high tech form of pwer generation, does not mean you have to. I agree that there would be other forms of energy and power plants...especially on the districts, but why waste or not utilize a source that would provide vast amounts of energy. the steam in this equation is also only used to generate electrical energy. Many power plants today generate power in this manner, but by burning fossil fuels to turn the water to high pressure steam. The steam generation process is also a biproduct of the cooling system used to regulate the temperature of the underground domes during the months of daylight. Permanent offices, yes. Retirement homes, no. It's not much fun having to live underground constantly, no different that living in the Cities, and having to wear big bulky and uncomfortable environmental suits above ground. Actually, the domes would be better than the mobile districts if for no other fact that they are more spacious than the districts. Rich families or corporations could have private domes or tunnels. The technology probably exists in the 40k universe to make these less like a hole in the ground and more like 4 star resorts. If a cave or dome is large enough and their is lighting that simulates natural light, one might be able to forget that they are in a cave. Hanging plants and waterfalls (only for the rich of course) will add to this illusion. they may have also imported such luxuries as grass or maybe birds and other wild animals.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 17, 2004 6:22:59 GMT -5
Mining the rings of gas giants and asteroids for ice shares alot of imagery with the 40k universe. It is also more cost effective and lower tech, allowing for private citizens to be ice miners or ice prospectors. Siphoning the hydrogen and oxygen of gas giants may require more technology that makes it too expensive for the general individual. You may have larger corporate concerns extracting water in this method, but I also see room for your lowly one ship operators mining ice as well. Maybe this is where some of the smuggled water comes from. Well, water is rapidly becoming a major concern for the planet, so no reason why this wouldn't work. Ice rings it is. Coming around to your reasoning.... Polar bases are looking like a good idea after all. Even more good reasoning behind the polar cities. "Private concerns" may have been the ancestors of the first highborn houses, who hired/conscripted miners from Meksum Prime or other hiveworlds, who jumped at a chance for good-paid work. That's enough. I'm convinced. Even though the Ad. Mech. dragged the tread systems out of storage, they'd need a good reason to risk such prized Dark Age tech. I see the oil analogy. Maybe some Machien Cult sneakiness could show up here.........the planet is discovered as a wealth of minerals, and a group of powerful merchant families pool resources to colonize and mine it, giving the Ad. Mech. a small share in the profits in exchange for mining technology and other assorted help. When the poles are mined out, the merchants (houses) think they're done for. Then the Ad. Mech. unveil their coup de grace, the track systems for mobile cities. They agree to supply the treads and assist in the building of the cities for a much greater portion of the results, which results in the modern Karnak. Maybe the Ad. Mech. knew about it from the beginning, that the polar minerals would not last long. [/quote] Gotta go now, will talk about pirates later.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 17, 2004 6:25:17 GMT -5
When you changed the orbit did you change the orbital period, because i've had an idea, say the orbit was slightly less than circular, indeed the it actually got quite close to the star during the summer months. At which times the crust did soften, even melt allowing great mantle plumes rich in minerals to breach the surface, think bubbling mud, and that during the winter months they cooled and condensed into very high desiity ore pockets. Now in order to take advantage of this mobile cities were needed, because there couldn't be a permanent mining settlement there as it would melt during the next summer, also it would be easier to move the mines to the next plume when it burst like as puss filled sore during the summer. At these times the city would have to be on the dark side, but during the cooler monthes, powerful heat and radiation screens would protect it So, summer =ore bubbles, which cool during winter=city moves to them and mines them, day and night as the sheilds do their job=summer time approaches again=city packs up and begins its long jorney into the night=summer, new ore bubbles appear and the whole thing begins again
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 17, 2004 10:36:58 GMT -5
euh, I dunno. The problem is that "summer" lasts for about 2 1/2 days, so there's not much mining time. The slow, steady strip mining of the planet's resources is more logical and simpler.
Does heat transmit in a vacumn?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 17, 2004 11:10:30 GMT -5
Ok, now I know you read my whole post, but to clarify, you have moved the planet further out, yes, well this would mean a longer "year" would it not. Mmmm(insert raised eyebrow smiley) Yes heat transmits in a vacuum you never wondered why the temp rises when the fiery ball is in the sky ;D *An unknown person snickers* ;D
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 17, 2004 11:53:19 GMT -5
d'oh! You're right, that'll have to wait until I recalculate the time periods.
THen why do astronauts need heated suits?
Wait.....because the sun is so far away....
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Post by Dazo on Aug 17, 2004 12:00:57 GMT -5
Mmmm no, though that is a popular misconception, the suits are insulated to be sure, but the main system in a space suit is the coolant system, its easier to keep them cool in direct sunlight than raise the temperature above absolute zero, it would require to much energy. That is for our star, your star it wouldn't matter if they had metallic hydrogen coolant they'ed still burn to a frazzle
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Post by zholud on Aug 18, 2004 1:40:56 GMT -5
Mmmm no, though that is a popular misconception, the suits are insulated to be sure, but the main system in a space suit is the coolant system, its easier to keep them cool in direct sunlight than raise the temperature above absolute zero, it would require to much energy. Again misconception You have to keep your body inside the suit from boiling due to own heat. The only way to cool body naturally in vacuum is to radiate heat.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 18, 2004 6:47:49 GMT -5
arrg, so would shields be needed to protect the orbital station from heat or not?
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Post by Destecado on Aug 18, 2004 8:31:01 GMT -5
The figures below are for objects orbiting the earth. An orbiting object in sunlight can reach 121 degrees Celsius [ºC] (250 degrees Fahrenheit [ºF]. That same object in the shade can drop to temperatures as low as -157 ºC (-250 ºF).
The space station and shuttles currently use to methods in order to avoid the accumulated heat from solar radiation. the first is insulation. this helps to keep out the heat of the sun and also helps to block other forms of harmful radiation that bombard them while in orbit. The problem with insulation is that while keeping external heat out, it also keeps the heat generated inside the station in.
This heat is generated by equipment and occpants of the station. The space station and shuttles rely on a system of radiators which "radiate" or dump excess heat into the dark or shaded areas of space. this is one reason why the shuttle flys with its cargo bay doors open. the radiators are on the inside surface of the doors.
I'm not sure how you were thinking of handling the shielding for the station, but shileding alone will not disipate the heat. It may block a good portion of the solar radiation, but you will still need to deal with the internal build up of heat within the station.
You may want to consider doing away with the idea of the orbiting station and place star ports at either polar region. This recomendation is based not only on the difficulty of maintaining such a station, but also because of the amount of resources that you plan to have passing through the station.
Maintaining a certain orbit is predicated on several variables one of these being the objects mass. Arriving a departing shipments of mnerals stored in an orbital facility would cause large fluctuations. this would require a large expenditure of energy to maintain orbit.
By having the resources brought to the poles, they could be maintained in centralized stockpiles until such time as a ship arrived to collect them. This could also serve as a form of commerce between the houses. Perhaps each company or house could have its own warehouses. For large purchases between houses, instead of exchanging money, which is always in short supply they have a specialized form of barter where a certain amount of raw material is transferred from the buyers wharehouse to that of the seller.
It may also be possible to avoid having ship landing all together. Is it beyond the technology of the mperium to build large rail guns? they could launch the minnerals into orbit on a trajectory for one of the outer planets or moons. The ship would then rendevous with the minerals and pick them up in transit.
In times of war, the rail launchers could perhaps be used for planetary defense. You might want to move the space station further out into the system, perhaps circling one of the gas giants or somewhere n the asteroid field (if there is one). It could perhpas be the home of the water cartels and also serve as the systems traffic control center.
System traffic control would track all "outbound" loads of ore and other materials from the planet. It would also track all the ships in the system...to make sure there is no intersections in flight paths. It would also look for pirates and ore jumpers.
If this system is possible based on Imperial technology, ore jumpers would be ships that would try to intercept the loads of ore before they met up with the ship intended to receive the cargo. They would pull in, try to grab as much ore as possible from the shipment before having to disengage and try to make off with there ill gotten cargo.
Of course some ships would still need to make planet fall, these could approach in the shadow of the planet to which ever polar region is in darkness and land there. I apologize, as I said, I'm not entirely familiar with the concept of the shield ships you are describing. So without a proper understanding I'm trying to come up with alternatives. Would it be possible to perhaps post a basic explanation of how the shield ships are suppose to work.
Anyhow, having to wait for one or either pole to be in darkness to effect a landing could mean that there are times when ships are unable to land on planet. this might lead to some interesting scenarios where reinforcements can't be dropped right away and the defenders are forced to hold out for several weeks on their own.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 18, 2004 8:56:50 GMT -5
Shield ships:
It's been a while since I read the book of inspiration, but I'll do my best. The ships were built to protect incoming and outgoing vessels from the extreme heat/radiation of the sun. They were shaped more or less like giant self-propelled walls, think square umbrellas in space with engines, that other ships huddled behind until they were close enough to hide behind the planet itself. All I remember in detail was that a Star Destroyer tried to hyperspace in without the protection of a shieldship and was crippled and blinded by the sun.
My shield ships are supposed to do the same thing, but I'm hampered by the obvious irregularities in the Star Wars universe. Maybe the star throws off violent waves of radiation in various spectrums, that do damage to starship's internal components or sensors if not deflected?
The Mainworld has been shifted to Orbit zone 4, all affected data values changed, and the temperature worksheet is done. Without boring you with the details, the polar regions and any resulting bases would have a average base temperature of 222 degrees Celsius, with a summer high of 250 degrees and a winter low of 181 degrees. Does this change anything, or does it cement the need for a polar base?
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Post by Destecado on Aug 20, 2004 9:42:35 GMT -5
Shield ships: The Mainworld has been shifted to Orbit zone 4, all affected data values changed, and the temperature worksheet is done. Without boring you with the details, the polar regions and any resulting bases would have a average base temperature of 222 degrees Celsius, with a summer high of 250 degrees and a winter low of 181 degrees. Does this change anything, or does it cement the need for a polar base?
Regardless of the temperatures, I think the polar bases are still a good idea. Have you done a temperature worksheet yet to determine what the teperature would be at the poles. Are the numbers from the original UWP still valid (- 49 oC)? Even if this is not accurate, the lower tempreatures would make work easier. The way I see it, your probably going to need underground facilities large enough to build one of the districts or maybe at least nderground fabrication plants to produce sections of the facility with the final assemply taking place above ground during the cover of darkness. the reason I think that much of the production would need to take place underground because 1. The sun would fry any facilites above ground. 2. I'm not sure what type of interaction the atmosphere would have with the production process. The UWP states that the atmosphere is dense, but goes little beyond that (unless I missed it). You have to determine what kind of effect the thick atmosphere will have on the construction of the districts. this is not only the fact that people will have to wear enviroment and cooling suits, but also because there may be some element or traces gasses in the atmosphere that might cause oxidation of the welds or become trapped within the district while it is being constructed. Based on the teperature range you are talking about not even water vapor would exist in the air. Water boils at around 100oC, the water is probably broken down into oxygen and hydrogen at the temperatures we're discussing. Is it possible to give a better definition of what you mean by a dense atmosphere. Another odd thing. The planet has a pressure of 2 atmospheres at "sea" level, but has a gravity of only .85 standard.....somehow that just doesn't sound right
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 21, 2004 0:40:33 GMT -5
Regardless of the temperatures, I think the polar bases are still a good idea. Have you done a temperature worksheet yet to determine what the teperature would be at the poles. Are the numbers from the original UWP still valid (- 49 oC)? Even if this is not accurate, the lower tempreatures would make work easier. Polar bases are definitely a good idea. And the temperatures I quoted above are from the temperature worksheet, showing the summer high, winter low, and average daily temperature at the poles. That's one mighty big cavern. It'd be feasible though. Perhaps a repurposing of some of the original caverns left over from mining in the poalr regions? Agreed. Trace elements could get involved .i'm not sure about oxidation (rusting, right?), I had decided on a nitrogen/hydrogen heavy atmosphere to avoid spontainous combustion of the atmosphere from all the oxygen - or would hydrogen have that effect - or am I barking up the wrong tree, and air will not combust regardless of temperatures? If so, a heavy content of oxygen could have interesting effects. See above for the proportions of oxygen and hydrogen, but there is definitely no water vapor here. As to a "dense" atmosphere, I'm as clueless as you are, I just followed the Guide there. Hey! Get your own editing color, lime green is mine! EDIT by Destecado:
Actually l've been using lime for quite some time. Kage uses gold and CELS uses red. This is one way you can differentiate when someone edits a post or when several people add comments to a post.
If you want I'll fight you for it. Shall we say chainsaws at 20 paces? That does seem odd now that you point it out. Still, it's what the Guide gave me and to change them would require changing the Atmopshere code - and that can of worms has been welded shut. ;D
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Post by Dazo on Aug 21, 2004 0:54:36 GMT -5
Air pressure has nothing to do with gravity, but how dense the atmosphere is, how thick it is and tha gases that comprise it. Heat also increases air pressure so there you go, problem solved. Then don't worry about rust it won't happen I don't think thats a very good solution to be honest, if they can do that why not just build the whole damn thing underground and not both with mobile cities.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 21, 2004 4:05:30 GMT -5
Air pressure has nothing to do with gravity, but how dense the atmosphere is, how thick it is and that gases that comprise it. Heat also increases air pressure so there you go, problem solved. Let me try to restate what I meant by this. Can we agree that heat cause air to expand? In much the same manner that as you heat the air inside a balloon, the air in the atmosphere will also expand. Unlike the ballon, which has an outer skin to retain the expanding air, the atmophere really has no such outer boundary. The question arises then, what stops the atmosphere from just floating off into space? The answer for the most part is the gravitational pull that the planet exerts. This is not to say that a planet loses none of its atmosphere. Even in our own atmosphere lighter particles such as hydrogen can escape. If this is the case, how can a world which has much higher temperatures than earth hope to retain an atmosphere when its gravity is so low? Based on the figures given, the atmosphere should have just "boiled" off into space. Without a higher gravity or some other factor to explain this, the planet should not have an atmosphere. Part of it may be the gas combinations that you are looking to include. Hydrogen and in some cases Oxygen are light and would need something to hold them in. If you take Venus as an example, its gravity is only 90.7% that of earth standard, but it also has a dense atmosphere composed mostly of Carbon Dioxide CO2. You will end up with an unbreathable atmosphere, but you will be able to have the density with the decrease in gravity. Then don't worry about rust it won't happen Oxidation does not only occure as rust. Steel rusts, copper turns green due to oxidation. If you are talking about welding, oxidation can weaken the weld. The atmosphere of Karnak has other gasses that may also react with the welding process, causing poorer quality welds. The vehicles that are being created will need to stand up to pretty high tolerances of temperature and other pressures. to have a poor quality weld give way could be catostrophic. This is why I feel such manufacturing would be done under controlled conditions. I don't think thats a very good solution to be honest, if they can do that why not just build the whole damn thing underground and not both with mobile cities. The size of the structure necessary to construct the districts underground is actually quite possible given our current technology. There are above ground buildings which cover several acers in which the largets airplanes in the world are manufactured. Besides, only the final assembly plant need be this large. There might be smaller factories that manufacture prefabricated components for the districts. Each of these plants would only need to be as big as the size of the components they manufacture.
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