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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 7, 2005 16:18:18 GMT -5
I'd like that aswell, I honestly can't tell when I drift into conversational prose, its jus the way I write I'm normally fond of copy editing and kibitzing articles, but there is far too much to do on the ASP without also having to do that. Just read through it several times and see what happens... If push comes to shove I suppose I could embolden or strikethrough all of the relevant sections. As I said in the proculus thread I hadn't done it for the economy side of things, I actually did it before that whole conversation started, it was only afterwards I thought it might be of some use for what sojourner was doing. Would you like it removed. Fair enough. Perhaps you could PM Sojourner to see whether it would be useful for him? I cannot see why at this juncture, but there we go. If there is no use for the moment, keep it in your own files but delete it from the SR. Oh I knew that, the reason I posted it seperatly was that it would be easier to find and read and easire for me to update so I wouldn't have to keep reposting it <grin> Fairny snuff. It was also a 'generic' statement for other peole who might have 'complete' worlds. It has nothing to do with the fact that I haven't read through the information (it would have at least been skim-read) but more to do with the fact that, at present, I'm more interested in integration than having worlds just dotted around in isolation. Indeed, this is the reason that I say that the worlds of "Archiaos" remain unaccepted. Until the proper juncture I will not accept any world even though, once everything is set up and ticking away, I'll just end up shifting them to the Archive. I'd rather get things in a state of semi-preparation and not have to nursemaid peoples' egos at this point. As I said in "Mission Statement", the idea has been percolating in my head for some time. It is for that reason that I have not replied to many of the threads, little else. I should have posted the "Mission Statement" a while back, but after the whole debacle about this being "my sole and lonesome interpretation", or whatever, I didn't have the heart... Now I would rather that the project went somewhere rather than being mired in 50 different world SRs that just... well... sit there. I always refere back to them, and the other worlds in the archives, it might not seem like I do, but I do, honest I mention this to help you along, daz0... If you include 'Wargame' and 'RPG' sections at the end with some suggestions, it would help your case greatly. When considering the position of the world in the subsector and, indeed, the sector as a whole seeing these sections would predispose the PPL or whomever to think 'globally'... It biases them to considering it an already integrated world. It's a bit sneaky, but manipulation is a great thing.
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Post by Dazo on Jan 8, 2005 8:08:53 GMT -5
Ok i'll have another look, don't expect miracles though I'll do that then, as I think sojourner said he wasn't ready for that sort of thing, he was still trying to get the basics figured out. I'd like to be able to do that but I have not got a clue how I would go about it. Looking at Tirasur its clear your vision for this world was clear as crystal, and that you know what your doing and what you wanted. I just don't know what I would do for my worlds so lamentably the RPG and wargame side of my worlds will be rather desolate.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 8, 2005 17:01:49 GMT -5
I just don't know what I would do for my worlds so lamentably the RPG and wargame side of my worlds will be rather desolate. Consider Seleca III since, erm, that's what we're talking about here. One thing that popped out when I just did another (literal) skim read is the changing designation from Agriworld to Civilised. This would more than likely require the presence of an 'Adeptus', a designed official of the adeptus administratum sent to the world to look through tithe records, economic profiles and even census'? Perhaps this official comes from the Imperial Conclave on Anargo... But surely there would be be people who wouldn't like to see the 'tax hike' (or just tithe) in the transition from Agriworld to Civilised since, in the long run, it will cut into their profit margins? It would seem fairly obviously that it would shift from food paste to, at least potentially, the pharmaceuticals industry. Or perhaps the reverse is the case? The subsector capital of Meksum wishes for the world to be redesignated as Civilised so as to change the balance of power between its powerful economy and that of Anargo through the Anargan Trade Spine. They're trying their best to up the status, but it is being blocked by Lord Anargo or someone else... What type of adventure or campaign might be created to represent this situation? This is just one example that springs to mind that integrates the 'story' of Seleca beyond itself so that it slightly more than just a random island in space. I know you tried this with the whole LMC gig, but at the moment while the 'product' is interesting the 'packaging' that it is being sold in isn't that appealing... But you know this from other threads.
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Post by Dazo on Jan 8, 2005 18:25:04 GMT -5
So for the RPG side of things I just need to come up with confrontational scenarios. I hadn't even considered the changes that would come with redesignation. I suppose I could think of somthing then, is there a world classification between agri and civilised, as the population is to high for an agri world but quite low for a civilised world. And as I'm coming to realise, there is always an adeptus presence of one kind or another on imperial worlds, how there would be conflict between selecans and the imperium is going to be difficult, really difficult.
Would the type of game system you would get with inquisitor or necromunda be appropriate for this as I have the inquisitor rule book thingy.
Do I need a current knoledge of BFG, and 40k to do the wargaming bit, which is still not clear to me, what do I need to say about that side of it. Do I need to come up with rules for IG regiments or somthing, can I say selecan forces should be considered to be storm troopers for the purpose of troop selection.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 9, 2005 13:34:44 GMT -5
So for the RPG side of things I just need to come up with confrontational scenarios. No, that's the wargame that is primarily concerned with confrontation. The RPG side of things is interested in interaction which may involve, at some point, conflict. I hadn't even considered the changes that would come with redesignation. That's what the whole "Mission Statement" is about. The worlds at the moment are all nice and isolated. Yes, they might fit together in a sense into a wider concept of a subsector, but there is no 'life' to them. No story other than their own backstory which may or may not relate into the wider Imperium... This is all about getting the stories of the subsectors working, and then thinking of ways (at least suggestions) that things can be made to work in one big whole... I suppose I could think of somthing then, is there a world classification between agri and civilised, as the population is to high for an agri world but quite low for a civilised world. Why bother? Does the adeptus administratum strike you as creating shades of grey? You're one type and get 'taxed' this much, you're another type and get 'taxed' that much. What do they care if you're not fully one or the other, as lon as you pay your taxes. And as I'm coming to realise, there is always an adeptus presence of one kind or another on imperial worlds, how there would be conflict between selecans and the imperium is going to be difficult, really difficult. Politics, daz0. It's all about politics, not necessarily armies. Politics is all about polite conflict which can nevertheless be far more vicious and with equally far-reaching consequences. Would the type of game system you would get with inquisitor or necromunda be appropriate for this as I have the inquisitor rule book thingy. It's not about actually designing the scenario, but offering potential scenarios. (And, incidentally, both of those are high resolution skirmish wargames...) Do I need a current knoledge of BFG, and 40k to do the wargaming bit, which is still not clear to me, what do I need to say about that side of it. As with the RPG side of things, all you need is the ability to come up with a potential scenario that might be of relevance. Do I need to come up with rules for IG regiments or somthing, can I say selecan forces should be considered to be storm troopers for the purpose of troop selection. No, there's already enough concentration on the PDF and Imperial Guard regiments to last us a lifetime.
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Post by Dazo on Jan 9, 2005 14:38:06 GMT -5
You see the trouble is I don't see the Imperium as being all that political, you do as your told or you get spanked, hard. I know there are politics, but the imperium will ignore that and simply remove any body that is giving them problems it doesn't matter how influential that person or group of people might be. Why would the Ipmerium even bother itself to play political power games with the people of seleca, when it could simply march in kill 50% of the population, replace them and impose martial law across the planet. I think GW have done something of a diservice to us by making the various adeptus so powerful and all encompasing, there is no room for political manouvering any more, unless it be between say the Mechanicus and the inquisition, or the Ministorum and the arbites and so on. Would you be suggesting that its these superpowers that are somehow having difficulty getting along. That might be a problem in Meksum, what with it being so peaceful, to my knoledge there is almost no xenos activity, no chaos activity and no rebellions, I can't just come up with something out of the blue its not my sub sector And I'm not sure if you remember but I was gunned down mercilessly for having to many PDF, I was told I didn't need them as there was no large scale conflict for them to participate in. Rather than a world by world approach Might it not be better to have a sub sector brief on military/wargame things. If worlds don't get to have special rules for there armed forces then theres no point talking about them. We may as well have a generic approach to guard regiments for the entire sub and not singular worlds. So any engagement in Meksum would be your standard scenario, only the names of the places where it would be happening would change. The actuall worlds would not influence the scenario, but the sub sector brief would, so for castellan you most likely have scenarios involving orks, but meksum would most probably see dark eldar or chaos. Did that make any sense at all
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 12, 2005 22:58:43 GMT -5
You see the trouble is I don't see the Imperium as being all that political, you do as your told or you get spanked, hard. I know there are politics, but the imperium will ignore that and simply remove any body that is giving them problems it doesn't matter how influential that person or group of people might be. I would suggest that it is far too simplistic to consider the Imperium to be a true totalitarian dictatorship. The 'fluff' itself gives the lie to such an assertion even if, at times, the Imperium can appear that way. Why would the Ipmerium even bother itself to play political power games... Politics itself. It's like law, i.e. required only because of other lawyers. Okay, maybe not that cynical but the point remains. Politics will exist. The Imperium cannot function as a centralised government (obviously), but rather things happen on a structured, hierarchal system... So while the Imperium maintains the ability to 'crush' anyone on a whim, practice is quite different. Consider the "Eisenhorn" books and their treatment of an Inquisitor... I think GW have done something of a diservice to us by making the various adeptus so powerful and all encompasing, there is no room for political manouvering any more... That, for me, is a mistaken assumption. The 'fluff' has only really changed in some of the 'feel' (i.e. the transition from sci-fantasy to almost pure fantasy) but if you keep the old 'fluff' in mind the manoeuvering is still there... Would you be suggesting that its these superpowers that are somehow having difficulty getting along. The adeptus terra is a corrupt organisation riven by disorganisation and conflict, both intra- adeptus and inter- adeptus. That might be a problem in Meksum, what with it being so peaceful, to my knoledge there is almost no xenos activity, no chaos activity and no rebellions, I can't just come up with something out of the blue its not my sub sector... If I can come up with something in about 10 seconds, I'm sure that with a bit of thought you can come up with something that doesn't revolve around wargame logic. If you cannot, then perhaps that means that the world simply isn't suitable...? And I'm not sure if you remember but I was gunned down mercilessly for having to many PDF, I was told I didn't need them as there was no large scale conflict for them to participate in. Wargame logic has no place in the 'fluff', or at least is not the dominant feature of the 'fluff'. Rather than a world by world approach Might it not be better to have a sub sector brief on military/wargame things. Why? It's not just about the wargame... Despite the tag-line, the "Grim dark future" is not just about war.
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Post by Dazo on Jan 13, 2005 5:02:50 GMT -5
Yes but whats the point. I don't mean whats the point per say, but if every imperial world is only going to have imperial guard then all ot them will be exactly the say across the sub sector, an attack on seleca by dark eldar is going to be the same as an attack on quechit or morven by dark eldar, the only thing that would be different would be the name of the place upon which it is happening. The reason you could do it so easily for your eldar world is because they are unique, the motive for eldar going to war are different, for the most part, from human reasons, and eldar armies are for more how shall we say, changeble/varied than your bog standard imperial army, which is all we will be having. This was why I asked, can I say that any one who decided to use a Selecan army would have to use the rules I come up with for them. If not Kage I see no point in doing a seperate wargame section for every imperial world as they will all be carbon copies. I'm not trying to piss you off, I just honestly cant see what your getting at, and its not fair to be threatening to drop my world because of that.
I know its not just about the wargame, for the RPG side I fully agree individualised approaches should be mandatory. But for the wargame side, the purely wargame side, then a sub sector approach would make more sense, for reasons I've already given.
Can you at least tell me what you had in mind for your world of Anargo, it might inspire me, and be a useful indicator of what you expect from us.
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Post by Destecado on Jan 13, 2005 14:04:57 GMT -5
Yes but what’s the point. I don't mean whets the point per say, but if every imperial world is only going to have imperial guard then all of them will be exactly the say across the sub sector, an attack on Seleca by Dark Eldar is going to be the same as an attack on Quechit or Morven by Dark Eldar, the only thing that would be different would be the name of the place upon which it is happening. There may be some similarities to the engagements, but there would also be significant differences. You need to take into account the environment of the world as well as differences in the culture and in the forces that make up the Imperial Guard units. Let us use Morven as an example. Morven is primarily a swamp world. The inhabitants are either settled on high points to be out of the swamp mist or live in communities scattered throughout the swamp. The Imperial Guard units of this world do not use vehicles in the same manner as say Proculus or Seleca. Since most of the Dark Eldar vehicles float above the ground, they would have a distinct advantage over typical imperial vehicles which would either become mired in the swamp or move much slower than across open ground. Since many of the swamp communities are small (or at least were the last time I read the Morven thread). They might present easy targets for the Dark Eldar. Another thing to consider is the amount of surveillance equipment such a world would have. When you are talking about a fortress world like those in the Castellan Subsector, you would probably have many spy satellites in orbit monitoring the surface as well as space, as an early warning against invasion. A world like Morven either by their cost or level of technology might not have as many reconnaissance satellites, thus having gaps in its security network (through which the Dark Eldar could penetrate undetected). The reason you could do it so easily for your eldar world is because they are unique, the motive for eldar going to war are different, for the most part, from human reasons, and eldar armies are for more how shall we say, changeable/varied than your bog standard imperial army, which is all we will be having. I don’t agree that all imperial guard units will be of a standard construction. Also the motives behind going to war or calling up guard units can vary. There is plenty of room for political intrigue and manipulation to call up forces or to demobilize units. The “wargame” of course focuses on the war aspect and the movement of armies without bothering to look at other factors of society and the story, which the RPG would explore. The RPG need not deal with the grand movement of armies or of far reaching wars…of course it can, but I have always found the more interesting games to be the stories of individuals. If you look at many game systems, they deal with the interpersonal conflicts or the back stories that lead to larger events, such as galactic war. To put this in context, the large scale movement of armies during world war I would represent the 40k wargame, while the story behind the events that lead up to the war…the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand would make for an interesting role playing scenario. Even within the confines of the larger war, there would be room for interesting RPG scenarios. An example of this would be like the movie Kelly’s Heroes. During the larger war, a small group of soldiers find out about a large amount of gold being stored in a bank guarded by the German. They devise a daring raid behind enemy lines to secure this gold, for themselves, before the rest of the allied forces show up. There are a multitude of ways to work the RPG into the overall store of a war, without resorting to what I refer to as the dungeon crawl mentality of some wargames (each new scenario is just about defeating the next monster or group of monsters, with little time spent on role playing between the characters. If you’re after this kind of RPG, you might as well just play the wargame.
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Post by Destecado on Jan 13, 2005 16:59:15 GMT -5
Below is some feedabck on the Seleca SR: Planet DescriptionThis might bear some additional exploration. A lagoon is usually defined as a shallow sound, channel, or pond near or connected with a larger body of water. Can you give a better idea of the actual depth of the water in this area bounded by the two land masses? It may be that at one time the land now at the bottom of the lagoon was above sea level. To draw a parallel to our own world, during the last ice age, it is believed that the waters of the oceans recede to an extent that the land which now lies under the Gulf of Batabano (of the west coast of Cuba running to the Isle of Youth) was at the time a fertile plain. They have found remains of a city at the bottom of the bay. Some believe that this may be the “lost” city of Atlantis…but we won’t go into that here. Suffice to say, as the temperature rose, the sea level also rose submerging this fertile pain. Perhaps a similar event led to the large lagoon on Seleca. If it is not too deep, it may be possible to reclaim this land from the ocean by building a series of dikes and levies at the edges of the lagoon. Land reclamation of this sort might yield highly fertile farming land which could almost double the planet’s output. It could be that at the moment, the planet lacks the finances to fund this project or maybe the technical expertise. It might be interesting to see this project develop as the timeline of the ASP goes forward. That sounds like too rosy a picture. There was no destruction of the local life forms by life forms brought by the colonists or difficulty integrating a terran life form? This happens even on earth, when animals or even plants are brought from one area to another. It is one reason why there are such stringent rules against transporting animals and even bringing fruit from one country to another. If you are interested in exploring true architecture that melds itself into the landscape, you may wish to consider looking into the architectural designs and philosophy of Frank Lloyd Wright…and Buckminster Fuller as well. I’m attaching a link to a couple of good sites with depictions of Wright’s work. Designs for an American Landscape, 1922-1932I truly recommend following the links on the page. They list some of Wrights major projects and have very nice detailed drawings and models that displace his artistry and aesthetic eye. The Architecture of Frank Lloyd WrightGovernmentBeing able to retire when they see fit might just be a short step away from a hereditary ruler. You should put some stipulation in there that allows the parliament to remove him/her. Perhaps a vote of no confidence can have the Prime Minister removed. Who makes up the “people’s parliament”? Is it an elected body or is there a plebiscite or is the parliament a group of elected officials? How does it differ from the local government mentioned later? The government that you have introduced sounds pretty egalitarian. I don’t think that they would force people to vote. To do nothing is still doing something. People should be able to not vote….especially with the society being tied to the land or sea. It might be difficult to return for voting. I agree that voting should be mandatory for anyone holding a position in the government or in a civil service job, like mail delivery or police officer. More to follow…
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 13, 2005 22:47:25 GMT -5
...but if every imperial world is only going to have imperial guard then all ot them will be exactly the say across the sub sector... First off, not all worlds necessarily have Imperial Guard resident on them. an attack on seleca by dark eldar is going to be the same as an attack on quechit or morven by dark eldar... This is covered by Destecado, later. To extrapolate on the point, it is about giving some examples that transcend the automatic assumptions of the 'fluff' with respect to the wargame. Look at Tryphon, for example. CELS gives some examples of how the unique history and society of Tryphon can be used to produce some context-specific 'wargame scenarios'. Similarly with the RPG... Again, though, this was to aid in integrating a world into the wider Anargo sector. The project has never been just about world-building since anyone can do that, more so with the utilisation of H&E here. The real question is whether you can get them working together. the only thing that would be different would be the name of the place upon which it is happening. Just because the wargame doesn't abstract some feature of reality doesn't mean that it is absent. Again, it's not just about having a place to "blow stuff up", but rather providing an immersive environent where "blow[ing] stuff up" is contextual... This was why I asked, can I say that any one who decided to use a Selecan army would have to use the rules I come up with for them. This is about coming up with scenarios, not about what wargame options you select. If not Kage I see no point in doing a seperate wargame section for every imperial world as they will all be carbon copies. Again, it is a suggested list of scenarios/adventures, not a definitive one. I'm not trying to piss you off, I just honestly cant see what your getting at, and its not fair to be threatening to drop my world because of that. I've got a sneaking suspicion that you're entirely missing the point. All that I'm asking for is that for your own benefit that you take a look at Tryphon (in particular for the wargame section) and Tir'asur as examples of what you can do. Consider it as if you were GMing a game and, ultimately, telling a story. What stories might you tell on Seleca given what you have told us about the world in the SR? Or are you suggesting that Seleca is just the typical "SOS" ("Same 'Ole Sh*t") world that is so bland that you couldn't create a story from it... I would suggest self-evidently not. ... Oh yes. Daz0. Seleca has, as of yet, not been accepted so it is not possible to "drop it". There is no 'automatic acceptance' of a world because it has been developed up to SR format. It, like all the other worlds, is up for consideration and I'm merely trying to suggest means by which you can put your world into the rest of the subsector. If the only thing going for a world is an SR and no real 'interesting stories' what is the point?
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