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Post by Dazo on Sept 11, 2004 3:27:15 GMT -5
I feel like sisyphus rolling the bloody rock up the hill Its going to have to be complete, and at the minute I don't have a clue how I'm going to do it I agree but Zholud doesn't We only have one hive at the moment and the only other hive that is going to be allowed here is a ghost hive i think. You think, I think there's a lot of questions that need to be asked, Like who actually runs the imperium and what the imperium is because all my preconcieved ideas seem to be wrong I would have thought they would be agri worlds as there are'nt going to be any more hives other than Meksum, and I thought industrial worlds would be limited to your sub sector Well the very fact there are so many worlds capable of becoming agri worlds plus the prohibitive cost of warp travel importing food from other sub sectors seems both pointless and unfeasable. Besides wasn't Neu Povolzh settled so it could provide food for Meksum, I'll be happy to do another agriworld for Meksum, a simpler world that is pure agri world and nothing more, but I need to get my other ones done first. This was my belief aswell, It was also my belief that the subsector commander had the final say in what happens in his sub sector
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Post by CELS on Sept 11, 2004 7:25:51 GMT -5
I feel like sisyphus rolling the bloody rock up the hill Why? Why not? Hopefully, he should make an appearence in this thread soon. If not, I'll PM him. That's true, but I do think there were plans for other hives. Of course, I can't find these plans anywhere, since zholud hasn't really tried to show the members how he envision his subsector, with world concepts, etc. Ask away, as long as you ask in the right place Why should industrial worlds be limited to the Archaios subsector? They're more common there, yes, but they should be seen elsewhere too. Is it really that much more expensive to transport something from one subsector to another? This is something that needs clarification in order to model trade patterns. Yes, you do. And considering the amount of food that needs to be imported to a hiveworld, I'm not sure a single agri-world is enough. That depends on the matter at hand, I guess.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 11, 2004 12:36:59 GMT -5
Because every time i think i've got somthing finished I have to re do it Because I will have to radically re structure most of what I have written and I quite frankly don't know how i' m going to do it One of many things that need clarification CELS, one of many Fair enough, but I really don't think seleca being a civilised world would mean the end for Meksum.
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Post by CELS on Sept 12, 2004 5:34:52 GMT -5
Because every time i think i've got somthing finished I have to re do it Well, if you're looking for a place where your concepts and submissions will be accepted without question, you've come to the wrong place Everyone gets negative feedback on here, Dazo. People just react differently to it... If you have no idea how to restructure your SR, then the best thing is to start from scratch, much like Sisyphus. Of course, the trick is to learn how to work with what you have instead of going back to square one every time. So I have gathered But very few of them needs to be clarified in this thread, which was my entire point I agree, and I don't think zholud should force you to make Seleca an agriworld because Meksum needs agriworlds (though I have no idea if that's what he's actually doing). Again, we can only wait for zholud to make an appearance...
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Post by zholud on Sept 13, 2004 4:41:30 GMT -5
What do you mean by this? I meant that usually the IG regiments never may hope to return to their homeworld – Imperium has many other things to do instead of giving them free shipping back home for an outstanding service. So, I humbly propose the idea of returning Selecan veterans back on the planet. And all planet pay their ‘ticket fee’. What do you mean by uncontrolled and controlled migration? I mean the Imperium does organise migration and settlements but frowns upon people, who pay some trader to get out from world A to world B. Because it can spread physical and moral plague, which is undesired. Is this your personal guess? Can you explain? I think that if on Armageddon system with their multiple semi-habitable worlds, von Staab was governor of the mainworld but not the system this points that Imperium prefers not to give too much power in one hands. Think about problems of jurisdiction in Crossfire where just on the Right, Arbites lose their authority to Naval command… most likely worlds in Hydraphur system also headed by planet governors… finally just read my lips planetary governors I feel like sisyphus rolling the bloody rock up the hill No one said it will be easy We only have one hive at the moment and the only other hive that is going to be allowed here is a ghost hive i think. Two working Hiveworlds and the ghost one. Each needs to diversify its food sources, so at least 6 Agriworlds in the sub-sector. I would have thought they would be agri worlds as there are'nt going to be any more hives other than Meksum, and I thought industrial worlds would be limited to your sub sector I am sure that in terms of gross industrial output, Meksum overweights Mechanicus sub… and number of industrial worlds is close in both subs… hard to say where the number is greater. Besides wasn't Neu Povolzh settled so it could provide food for Meksum, I'll be happy to do another agriworld for Meksum, a simpler world that is pure agri world and nothing more, but I need to get my other ones done first. My present proposal – if we have proto-hives, I guess that proto-civilised worlds are entirely possible as well. What if Seleca started as Agriworld, but in M39 is became, according to Administratum decision, civilised world? But you are bound to supply no less foodstuffs than you did being Agriworld… you may grow them or even import from other planets to re-export. Hopefully, he should make an appearence in this thread soon. Heck, man, may a get free week end or not? My last post was Friday evening and you say I’m off for too long That's true, but I do think there were plans for other hives. Of course, I can't find these plans anywhere, since zholud hasn't really tried to show the members how he envision his subsector, with world concepts, etc. And what about the thread ‘other worlds in Meksum sub’? it’s more problem of the seeking in the right places Sadly enough, from what I recall, none of my concepts hasn’t been picked up… Is it really that much more expensive to transport something from one subsector to another? This is something that needs clarification in order to model trade patterns. as a rough guesstimate use the direct distance between planets to measure the transport cost, at least relative for intra-sub and inter-sub travel. Look up the sector map to see that quite possible Meksum has worlds in other sector closer to it than in other sub-sectors.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 13, 2004 4:45:31 GMT -5
Ok, it wasn't just retiring guaurd regiments it was also their families and also the refugees from their homeworld which was invaded by orks. So they still hate orks, they will be raising guard regiments to fight them and drive them from their homeworld. There is also a larger starting population that remembers what happened and how unprepared they were, the term never again is apt, apt I say. Military training for all able bodied adults is encouraged, though young women of child bearing are not required to join the guard, they are needed for making babies. Minimal company involvement, they still mine the system for the selecans who have set quotas, any excess material mined is the companys to keep so it like a part payment, there are other benefits for the company but I haven't thought that far ahead. Every one is expected to own at least one weapon thats the law, thats it, no discussion, the law is the law. That does not mean every one has top of the range lasguns, maybe only shotguns or stubbers but they will have a weapon. PDF troops get to keep their weapon when they retire so these will get passed down through the family, these will be lasguns. Seleca is no longer an out and out agriworld, though they do produce vast quantities of food for export/tithes. Luxury items are plentiful and they have taken full advantage of that, this is probably why the company finds seleca so interesting, they get to buy transport and sell these items for greatly inflated prices. If you want another agri world Zholud i'l be happy to do you one, theres plenty of worlds with that potential, but I don't think seleca fits the model for an agriworld anymore Edit: I don't think selacan regiments from hew seleca would return there. i've been pottering about with H&E and on gererating the old seleca system, i found i got two habitable planets. The other world is a desert world no water but breathable air, nice gravity and moderate temperature's so i'm thinking this became the new main world. Also a good place for the guard to assemble ready for transport to seleca prime and for them to return to when their tour is up.
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Post by zholud on Sept 14, 2004 3:53:48 GMT -5
Ok, it wasn't just retiring guaurd regiments it was also their families and also the refugees from their homeworld which was invaded by orks. Point is that Imperium in its dark image may say – you had to die defending your world. I don’t care that you’re 5 year old and lack both legs… you could be a human bomb thenI made to bordering on stupidity, but I guess you catch my drift. Plus, who will transport refugees, many of which most likely low skilled and cannot afford interstellar travel. Note also that according to your description the world is relatively homogenate, so refugees have no significant affect on its overall culture – where their military hatred goes then… I don’t even point that on real Earth most locals dislike ‘newcomers’. So they still hate orks, they will be raising guard regiments to fight them and drive them from their homeworld. Are you more on poetic hatred toward enemy, or you mean that they are Ork-hunters as IG doctrine? If the latter – you need to know about your enemy, not just hate him. There is also a larger starting population that remembers what happened and how unprepared they were, the term never again is apt, apt I say. Do you remember your ancestors fighting infidels during middle ages? And still hate them? Note, it happened 500 year ago, and not 10,000 years ago, when Orks razed this planet… If you want another agri world Zholud i'l be happy to do you one, theres plenty of worlds with that potential, but I don't think seleca fits the model for an agriworld anymore I don’t want Agriworld made just because you have to… because it will be just a way to make Seleca not Agriworld… so you don’t want your planet as former Agriworld, as suggested?
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Post by Dazo on Sept 14, 2004 4:24:46 GMT -5
No, not stupid true, which makes the imperium stupid which is yet another reason why the imperium is rediculously unfeaseble. Do we have to adhere to this rather boring notion that no one goes any where and that each world is an island with absoluty no contact with any one else. There is so little depth in 40k i feel like im paddling in a kiddies pool. Oh the Imperium can afford it, do you honestly think they bill the emporer. Private industry will have high costs, not the imperium. I don't understand, which world?, homogenate? They are all new comers, they were the first colonists, though a continued inflow of people doesn't upset me to much, as long as they change their beliefs, culture and language to fit in there shouldn't be a problem. darned foriegners with their godless ways..grrrr To a degree I suppose, though ork hunters would be a little cheesy wouldn't you say. Though they could be more specifically trained in ork tactics and stuff. *turns towards the south east and shakes fist* I remember...i remember..grrrrr Yeah, I have no problem with that zholud, though all this re writing is becoming tedious so I might drop all the complicated stuff and just go with agri world, which would only require the most basic of descriptions.
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Post by CELS on Sept 14, 2004 7:33:41 GMT -5
I meant that usually the IG regiments never may hope to return to their homeworld – Imperium has many other things to do instead of giving them free shipping back home for an outstanding service. So, I humbly propose the idea of returning Selecan veterans back on the planet. And all planet pay their ‘ticket fee’. Ah, I understand now. Sounds perfectly possible to me. And like so many times before, I'll insist that this depends entirely on the system/world in question. Just like countries, some will be more willing to accept random immigrates (early USA) than others (today's Australia). But yes, as a general rule, most worlds will want to avoid uncontrolled migration, which is why anyone wanting to move from overpopulated worlds are almost forced to move to the worlds where they are needed the most (new colonies, for example). Hmm, you do have a point, but with a common tithe grade for an entire system, it makes little sense to have such a spread authority, doesn't it? Wow. How do you figure that? And how about 3 civilised worlds, 3 agri worlds and extra agri-worlds in another subsector? So you see the Meksum subsector having 6 agriworlds, 2 hiveworlds, 1 garden world, 1 feudal world, 1 dead hiveworld and something like 2-3 industrial worlds? I knew this would happen. Before you know it, we'll have proto-mining worlds, proto-death worlds, semi-civilised worlds and quasi-feudal worlds Sounds like a brilliant solution to me. I didn't say that, I just said that hopefully, you'd make an appearance Sorry, didn't see it It would probably help though, if you had a sticky thread with all the vital information about the subsector (as it is and as you want it to be) in the first post. Easy and accessible Don't know what to tell you. Several of my concepts were picked up, but then I was accused of head-hunting, since I actively presented my concepts to people and helped them to merge their ideas with my own Sure, direct distance might be used to measure transport cost, so that double the distance will mean double the cost, but we don't know how much transport cost is. Does double distance mean 2 percent transport cost instead of 1 percent, or 40 percent instead of 20? Also, some goods might be worth transporting to other subsectors, simply because they are unavailable in said subsectors, and so there is little competition. Do we have to adhere to this rather boring notion that no one goes any where and that each world is an island with absoluty no contact with any one else. There is so little depth in 40k i feel like im paddling in a kiddies pool. The depth in 40k depends on the eye of the beholder, really. As for no one travelling... well, no, most people never venture off world. Why would they? Interstellar travel is expensive, and no one is willing to sell their home just to have a 2 week vacation on a nearby gardenworld. While the lowly workers and peasants of the Imperium don't typically travel a lot amongst the stars, there are many who do, however. Adepts of the Imperium, soldiers, free traders, and so on. The who...? The same world we've been talking about all along, I presume. HomogenateThankfully, humans aren't known to try to maintain their culture and identity when they can. Oh wait, they are
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Post by zholud on Sept 17, 2004 15:03:19 GMT -5
Dazo, you may do a happy dance, because I’m back on tearing off your planet, so you may start Sisyphus work once again ;D The imperial commander or prime minister runs the planet with the aid of numerous ministers and cilvil servants. You meant commander and prime minister? How does it links to idea that governor it set by Administratum, while premier from what I got is elected? Of course you can try this way – Administratum appoints as the planetary governor the election winner. Question why they did it? This attitude again stems from the regiments past. The Selcan homeworld was left to fend for itself as a force of orks attacked a sparcely populated shrine world. Millions of Selecans died so the eccliesiarchy could save its precious relics, which were only ever available to be veiwed by the elite of the imperium to begin with. Anything else on it? What these attacks have in common with the backwater world in another subsector to begin with? And the Seleca was attacked in M32, when Ecclesiarchy only started to gain power, according to Sisters of battle codex. Advanced sea harvesting, recently introduced, Wasn’t that recently in M36, i.e. 4 millennia ago? The chemical industry on Seleca has been given a significant boost lately, the expansion into perfumes and sanitory products, plus the development of synthetic foods, has vastly increased the nessecity of advanced chemical engineering. Chemicals should go first and foremost as fertilisers (Agriworld ). As to synth-food – it is done on Hiveworlds because they need to eat and lack natural stuff. I don’t understand why to bother with it here. So far I enjoyed this remake. Will write more later
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Post by Dazo on Sept 17, 2004 15:38:52 GMT -5
Yes. its the same guy, selecans call them prime minister, imperium calls them governor/commander. Generally he's the most competant person to run the planet. I mean he isn't one man against the tide he has alot of advisors and what not, so he needn't be the most adept person with sums andfigures. as long as he keeps the people happy and productive i can't see why the administratum would oppose his appointment. The only thing the administratum care about is if the tithes are met or not. By backwater are you refering to Seleca III or the Selecan homeworld. I was thinking about managed migration from the old home world, so the bitterness would be kept smouldering by the new comers who would be welcomed with open arms. Why immigrants I here you ask, well this is a big world, with 30% land mass so even with a population of 7 million i would imagine only a fraction of this worlds potential is being met. So the administratum would be moving people from a shattered world that really can't support them, and which is contributing little to the imperial economy to a better place that needs them. Or through the company which is the option I prefere as means I can import people from where I want not what the administratum dictates. I'm not a historian zholud, cut me some slack man what you could have done was give me a date that would be more appropriate edit Ok i've dated it to M34I need to look at the dates again and revise them Yes thats why I said it recieved a boost, there was already a small agrichemical industry, but chemicals aren't used on seleca you eco terrorist you ;)its all natural fertilizers and organic crops. Seleca exports healthy food, processed but healthy, they fortify all exported food with vitamins and minerals. You have a tithe set at 1 million tonnes of food yes, just food it doesn't specify what type of foods, so you add syth food to that it lessens the strain on the planets resources, leaves more natural food for the planets inhabitants to do with as they will, it also reduces the work load as synthetic food would not be as labour intensive. How are those reasons for you, I wasn't planning to make it a regular thing, if there was a bad harvest it would be prudent to have something to fall back on would it not. ;D
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Post by CELS on Nov 1, 2004 12:02:39 GMT -5
I like what I see, Dazo. Selece III much more interesting now than it once was, I think. Or maybe I just got used to the concept, I don't know. Anway, here are my comments. 1) Grammar and sentence structure. I'll not be the one to correct all the grammatical mistakes this time, Dazo. Also, I'll not put this world in the approved archives before the grammar has improved significantly. You know what to do 2) Who does the Prime Minister select his other Ministers from? Are there political parties? Considering the apparent social-democratical culture of this world, I find it a bit strange that the Prime Minister is given so much power. 3) Considering the Ecclessiarchy's strong presence in the Anargo sector (they have a cardinal world here!!), how do you think they see Seleca III? Do you think they would allow strong anti-Ecclessiarchy movements? Do you think they would simply withdraw if they were not welcome? Or... would it not be more interesting if the Ecclessiarchy seemed to have a normal presence and position on the surface, whilst things were quite different in reality. For example, it could be that Seleca had marvellous cathedrals and monasteries just like other worlds, but that these stood largely empty. Instead of people rebelling against the priesthood, like on Tryphon, the people of Seleca III could just seem apathetic. 4) I'm curious about how the society on agri-worlds would differ from that of more densely populated worlds. This world has less than seven million citizens spread across the entire planet. Large cities do not exist. How has this affected the world as a whole? How does it affect the culture and the psychology, both individually and in groups? Is it like the early America, with families having huge areas of land, and living miles from their neighbours? Or do people not normally live together as families? 5) As I mentioned above, Agri-worlds will not have big cities. Most of the population will be spread very thin across the entire planet. The small percentage that do live in a densely populated area, would be found around space ports. 6) The term 'urban militia' for the police seems highly inappropriate. Considering the structure of this world, these guys would be more like Texan rangers than they would be an urban militia. First of all, there are very few cities. Second of all, they have a fantastically large territory to watch over. Third, the word 'militia' refers to an army, and an army would be extremely useless to enforce the law on a world like this. A police department with a hundred law enforcers might have to respond to a dozen incidents every day, spread across hundreds of square kilometers. The last thing you want to do is send them out like an army 7) You have two other Imperial worlds in the system other than Seleca III, so a population of only 7,000,000 system wide seems quite low. Seleca III is quite large, so it would probably have the maximum population for an agri-world. Do you know what this is? (Sorry, don't have my 3rd Ed rulebook with me) Keep up the good work
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Post by Dazo on Nov 1, 2004 14:00:52 GMT -5
Excellent Eh*eyebrow raised* Oh its like that is it D'oh. Fine i'll try myself, though this draft represents the pinacle of Dazo's grammatical grasp, so don't hold your breath. You didn't mention the paragraphs, I put alot of effort into those, you might have said somthing I...don't know, i'll get right on it You mean rather than forcing their own rather non sensical beliefs on a world they actually adapted to the needs of the people...yes I know thats not what you meant, I did read your post, but this is the direction i'll be going...unless there are strong objections. Thats not a bad suggestion, it could explain the above answer, the people ignored them so they started preaching what the people wanted to here. Ooops, that should have been changed, 7 million is the population of seleca, according to the 3rd ed 1 million seems to be the upper limit of an agri world, so.... Well your assuming that the first thing they did when they got there was spread out. it has a population of 7 million, why would they all be spread out equally, there will be cities, you need cetralised government, trade centres, manufacturing bases and so on and so forth. The actual farms would have to be hacked out of the wilderness first this would be best achieved from a centralised starting point. so as population grew so did the land that was able to be cultivated. you would then get villages which would oversee the farming of a set area of land, like nodes of civilisation in vast flat tracts of farmland. Yes it might well be exactly like midwest america, but with the culture of rural england, think american werewolf in london. Yes but each continent would need a major city, which is what I have done, they are quite small cities by earth standards though. I thought it would have seemed fairly clear, however looking at what I have written it isn't, i'll modify it. Thats an interesting idea, so...Urban rangers then If you have any ideas on what I should do feel free to let me know, perhaps somthing like rural 60s england police, ie one-three guys looking after the village. I got urban militia from medieval total war, I just thought ti meant town watch....ooh thats an idea
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Post by CELS on Nov 1, 2004 16:05:01 GMT -5
D'oh. Fine i'll try myself, though this draft represents the pinacle of Dazo's grammatical grasp, so don't hold your breath. You didn't mention the paragraphs, I put alot of effort into those, you might have said somthing I don't remember anyone complimenting me on my use of paragraphs Depends on what you mean by adapting to the needs of the people. The Adeptus Terra, and the Adeptus Ministorum least of all, doesn't strike me as an organisation that adapts to the wishes of the few. It's more like... you either get along, or homeless people will be warming their hands on your burning corpse. Again, it depends on what you mean. While it is clear that the Adeptus Ministorum isn't entirely monolithic, but has different 'schools', Inquisitors still get their jollies by burning heretics. Are you quite sure? That's even lower than I originally thoughts. Servitors all 'round... Not necessarily. But by the time the world was classified as an agri-world, that would mean that the population was appropriately low. And that must mean that the population had spread out. The Imperium will probably do everything to prevent cities becoming too big on agri-worlds. First of all, cities pollute. Second, they're not needed. Third, you need the population spread out as evenly as possible for maximum output. Centralised government... You only need so much administration for a world where 99% of the business is growing food, and where there is a population of only a few million. Trade centres.... what is there to trade? "Hey neighbour. Want to trade some of your grain for some of my grain? Sure, it's all the same, but we can't leave this huge trade centers empty, can we now?" Manufacturing bases... You have ships landing on agri-worlds every other second to pick up food and water, and these ships are usually headed for hiveworlds, industrial worlds or civilised worlds, where there is extensive industry. This means that any equipment needed can be manufactured on other worlds, and imported very cheaply by the Imperium. *sigh* The urban areas cover about 0.00001% of the planet surface, and you want to call the local law enforcers 'Urban rangers'? Whatever
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Post by Dazo on Nov 2, 2004 4:30:32 GMT -5
err not really, i'm gonna go with town watch i think, ala Ankh Morpork, and I still think that much of the planet may still be, if not unexplored, then wilderness, remember much of the food grown on Seleca comes from the oceans not the land *raises eyebrow* you did read the part about non agrairian produce and luxury items, different districts produce different products must go to doctors, back killing me Ahh painkillers more like 70% Your point being what, they bake bread on meksum, they freeze dry the food after it arrives on the planet its bound for, they process the food into army rations on the battlefield, they smoke the fish after its been on a cargo liner for 6 months. I think you have rdically underestimated the amount of effort required for food production What equipment are you refereing to, not farming equipment because that would be being manufactured on seleca, and weapons and war machines aren't needed as meksum is so peaceful yep thats why I wanted it reclassified as a civilised world Then their vast cathedrals will remain empty as no one will bother to turn up, no skin of my nose
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